Ep. 025 | Collective Care: A Disability Justice Paradigm
Today, we chat with guest, Yana Ramos, a music therapist, about how the disability justice paradigm impacts their practice of music therapy.
RESOURCES
10 Principles of Disability Justice by Sins Invalid
Disability Justice Informing Communities of Practice by Lydia XZ Brown
The Overlooked Reality of Police Violence Against Disabled Black Americans from The Takeaway
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about collective care: a disability justice paradigm, with music therapist, Yana Ramos.
Yana is a music therapist who strives to ground the space they share with others in the framework of disability justice, strengthening collective care and being gentle with our bodies and minds. With over a year of clinical experience, Yana collaborates with parents, children, youth, and elders to create a space where existing in one’s fullness is actualized and celebrated.
Before we get started, here’s a note from Yana.
Yana: Thanks, Erica. Before we get into the podcast, there are a couple things I wanted to leave a disclaimer about. The first of which is that I am a nonblack person of color who lives in a neurodivergent and disabled body-mind, with other intersecting identities of privilege and power and marginalization and oppression. All of the things that I will share in this podcast, if they are not my own experience, is knowledge that I have received from the writings and teachings and lived examples of elders in the disabled community. And I recognize that the things I have chosen to share - or the way that I have been able to share this knowledge is a snapshot of where I am in my journey of learning and unlearning.
Early in the episode, I use a word that is considered an ableist slur, and I apologize to anyone that that triggers. There are many layers of harm and trauma and growth and community and resistance and oppression and suppression, and I do not have the exerpience to talk about all of them - and there are other people who have chosen to talk about them. So, just to note that this is an overview of one person’s current understanding of disability justice, especially as it relates to the field of music therapy. And I really appreciate the opportunity to share this part of my journey on this podcast. So, thanks again.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome back to the podcast, Yana. I’m excited.
Yana: I’m excited too! Thank you.
Erica: The last ones were so good, so I have high expectations - no pressure or anything —
Yana: No pressure —
Erica: No pressure.
[Yana and Erica chuckle]
Erica: So, today we’re gonna talk about disability justice. And we’ve chosen to talk about this today in particular because yesterday, Sunday, was the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act being passed in 1990, so that’s very important. There’s still a lot of work to be done regarding disability justice - but let’s talk about it. So, what is disability justice? Can we just start there?
Yana: Yeah. So like you said, we’re releasing this podcast because it comes on the 30th anniversary of the ADA. But this podcast is about disability justice, which could be considered, in some respects, like the second wave of disability rights, which is what the ADA granted us. So, the ADA is the law that said places need to be wheelchair accessible - basically the law that says people can’t discriminate against other people on the basis of disability. And that - and that came out of many years of advocacy and activism from within the disabled community. But, just because people are given protection under the law, it doesn’t mean that everything is okay now. Uh, especially because the disabled community has such a long history of being discriminated against under the law - I’m gonna use a term that - this is what the law was called, but this is - this word itself is not okay. But there were Idiot Laws, there were Ugly Laws - there were - basically laws that said if you’re disabled, we don’t want to see you out in public - you can’t marry, you know, regular people - you can’t produce children. Like, people were sterilized because they were disabled - and within our own country. So, the law - the law is great, but it doesn’t do much for us if, you know, we’re discriminated against under the law or we’re protected against under the law.
So, disability justice is a framework - so it’s like you should integrate disability justice into other justice movements that are happening now. And disability justice itself was developed about 15 or so years ago out of the work of people who are often left behind in the context of disability rights. SO, the disability rights movement, just like many other civil rights movements, were dominated by people with dominant identities. And disability justice as a practice centers the voices, the work, the body-minds of people who are at the like intersection - being disabled, being queer, being black indigenous people of color - being, you know, other - other identities that often get left out of the conversation. And it basically - it’s a practice that works toward valuing everybody’s body and mind as valuable, regardless of what perceived value or contribution they make to society - to justice movements - to, you know, life. So basically, if your movement is pushing for productivity that looks a certain way, if your movement is centering white voices, if your movement is centering people with certain types of impairments versus others - like, those are not disability justice.
Erica: As an anti-oppressive music therapy organization —
Yana: Mmhmm —
Erica: We are aware and critical of the extensive ableism that exists in the field of music therapy.
Yana: Yes.
Erica: So, at the intersection of your disability identity and your profession as a music therapist - and working from the disability justice paradigm - how do you approach your work maybe differently than maybe somebody that doesn’t have a disability? Or somebody that doesn’t work from that paradigm?
Yana: Mmm. Yeah. So, like you said, um, music therapy is very steeped in - in ableism, in a medicalized approach to bodies and minds, and - not - not every music therapist - not every music therapy philosophy, but the majority of this field is. And, so for me, uh integrating a disability justice approach into my professional practice means really recognizing and realizing what that means in my personal life. We, on this podcast, have talked about the idea of queering and like destabilizing these sort of assumed and expected ways of - of doing things, in regards to particularly power, hierarchy, and whose - whose voices and experiences are prioritized. And disability justice, sometimes we - sometimes people use the term cripping - which, to reclaim the slur of crippled - to sort of provide a more concrete foundation in a way to what queering, as a paradigm or theory strives for.
So, when you crip processes, in the same way that you can queer processes, uh you’re basically working within the strengths and limitations of your own body and mind - and that often is - that often uh is almost in opposition to what capitalist structures and systems say you have to - like you have to be productive, you have to do things in a certain amount of time, you have to meet these things - do these things in this way - or you won’t be recognized - or you’ll be left behind. Disability justice says we will move at the speed of the person that we are going to come alongside. There was a uh a talk - a presentation given called Moving at the Speed of Trust and I really like that. Uh, and - and basically, it’s this idea of really valuing and not leaving behind everybody.
And so, to come back to your question, um in my professional practice, it means that I try to sort of blur the edges of what power itself looks like - I - I’ve talked about this before - but also, just within the professional like relationships and community that I am a part of, to also remind others that their experiences in their own bodies and minds is also valuable. Because colonialism and capitalism, they sort of say, you come into a space -whether that’s a - like an advocacy space, or a sort of career space, or a - even a therapy space - like that’s separate from who you are - that’s - you sort of leave all of the things, right, at the door. Like, even as kids, we’re often told like, leave it at the door, right - but when you crip what that looks like, and queer what that looks like, you begin to be able to integrate and to celebrate all of the experiences of all of who you are. Um, and that’s - that’s what I try to bring into every space that I’m a part of.
Erica: Your explanation of how you integrate disability justice into your professional work as well as your personal spaces, that supports the anti-oppressive —
Yana: Mmm —
Erica: Nature of the type of work that our organization does specifically.
Yana: Yes.
Erica: Where do you see the intersection between the disability justice approach and trauma-informed care?
Yana: Mmm. Yeah, so, I personally believe that trauma-informed care uh is - one, extremely valuable, and I’m so grateful that we work from that approach. And, I also believe that, in a lot of ways, meeting someone with a trauma-informed lens is kind of the very least we can do for each other as humans who are - who cannot be separated from our experiences in the world. Everyone brings all of who they are into all of the spaces, right, and acknowledging and holding uh what that means, like, that’s how you care for people - in - for me.
And so, the disability justice approach kind of builds upon that in a way um by saying, we recognize that the bodies and minds that we exist in, which are not separate from the rest of the world that we exist in - for particularly queer/trans/black/indigenous/people of color who are disabled - the structures that we live in actively - or sort of complicity uh if that makes sense, try to keep us out. And disability justice is a way to bring everyone in, and to not leave people behind. So, by actively working to crip spaces and crip uh relationships - by actively working toward mutual community care - by actively, you know, asking people what are your access needs - by actively holding space for community that is cross-movement, cross-disability - because there is - just in existing as a disabled person, we’re often isolated from our community and our culture and our history - and disability justice gives us space to connect. And, I think that - that piece of community care and connection, and really putting into practice um actively caring for one another - actively recognizing that we don’t exist in an isolated bubble, either from our own bodies or from collective traumas either, like that, I think, is - is really valuable.
Erica: How do you - practically create safe space —
Yana: Mmhmm —
Erica: With disability justice in our sessions? We talk some on staff about universal design —
Yana: Mmhmm —
Erica: And making modifications to our physical building - to our physical rooms to support that - making modifications to how we distribute and collect like registration infor - information —
Yana: Yeah —
Erica: Intake information, etc. What do you do practically in a session?
Yana: So - that’s a good question. So I think it’s kind of difficult to narrow in on the this happens in this session, because, when we queer and crip spaces and relationships, we - it - it’s not just a one - a - one piece of that relationship, right. It’s - it’s like, everything. Everything is integrated. But, like, right now - we’re also recording in the time of the pandemic - we’re also recording in the time of the systems in the world are being questioned - are being challenged - are being dismantled in a way, and that means that a lot of what we do has had to shift. And a lot of the ways that has had to shift are things that disabled communities have been asking for - demanding - needing for many years. And ways that - ways that society has uh - has always said, oh it’s too hard - oh, we can’t do that - or that’s not the way we’ve done it, so we’re not going to do it that way. Like virtual things, or - like meeting people in virtual spaces, or having access to food deliveries, or just even developing networks of care. Like these are not things that people have had access to - even though we’ve needed access to
And sessions have - have sort of migrated virtually right now. And, in that way - like, there are pros and cons to virtual sessions - and also, it’s enabled us to really meet people where they are in such a way that’s like - we’re able to work on - on different schedules because like time seems so different now. We’re able to try to build in like these networks of care - get food to people. We’re able to do all of these things because the structures that we’ve been so used to being in and relying on are literally being shaken right now. And, that kind of enables people to now recognize that like, everyone is going to be left behind if we don’t change things. And - that’s the thing where people are like, I just wanna go back to the way things were - back to normal - like, disability justice says okay, that’s great, but please don’t continue to leave us behind, because right now, we’ve finally gotten a lot more access to a lot more things that we wouldn’t otherwise have. And that’s not to say things are perfect, because there are still people being left behind - rural communities, native communities - communities where internet is a barrier - like, that’s not okay that they’re still being left behind. And so it’s like, where do we go from here, right.
Erica: Mmm. I really like the so where do we go from here. And, I agree that the virtual nature of what’s happening is really opening up new or - new to certain communities - opportunities like doing therapy virtually that’s becoming a little bit more standard practice than previous. I also think that the current dismantling of systems - for our organization is we’re taking a real hard look at things - policies, procedures, etc - that impact our clients, but also those that impact our staff.
Yana: Mmm.
Erica: And we can get a - we can get overly focused with what clients need - with what our patients need - like, depending on what setting you’re working in and what your job is - this is not music therapy specific —
Yana: Sure —
Erica: But sometimes we entirely forget that the people doing the work also need the care.
Yana: Mmhmm.
Erica: And so, what are executive directors, board members, CEOs, etc, what are those people doing —
Yana: Mmm —
Erica: To integrate disability justice into their businesses, their nonprofits, their schools, etc?
Yana: Yeah. I mean, yeah, like you said, everyone needs care. Everyone - because, I think right now, you know, that’s - that’s the thing about disablement and enablement - everyone has had to shift the way they do things, and people are now having to grapple with these new ways of life that - it’s either structures and systems change, or like I said, everyone gets left behind. And one of the principles of disability justice is leadership and prioritizing the experiences of people that have these identities - like queer/trans/black/indigenous/people of color who are disabled -because, for a long time, these are the people - we are the people who have had to figure things out on our own. And right now, in a lot of ways, sectors of society have been disabled by the shift that’s had to happen, and we’re figuring out how we can enable access things - points of connection - all these things that people have been so used to having, that the disabled community has had to work really hard to achieve.
And that’s the thing - collective care and collective liberation has to happen in - in order for everyone to exist. Like, you may have heard the phrase like none of us are free until all of us are free - and that - like, that applies to so many things, but especially for the disabled community, who are historically just forgotten about. Like, we’ve been shut away - physically shut away - physically restrained from society - physically and metaphorically - we’ve lost generations to that. And violence has been committed against us. Like, a third to half of people who are victims of police brutality are disabled. And that’s - that’s not something that often gets talked about, but because we don’t exist just as isolated beings, all of these intersections of our existence contribute to the ways that we exist. Um, yeah.
Erica: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense and - good stuff. So, for listeners that are unfamiliar with disability justice and want to learn more about this approach and paradigm —
Yana: Mmhmm —
Erica: What resources would you recommend?
Yana: Yeah. So, like I said in my disclaimer, all of the knowledge that have shared and - and am working to integrate into my practice - my - my personal and professional practice, and that I am striving to embody, has been given to me by the writing and teaching of the elders in my community -those who are no longer with us and those who are actively right now advancing this approach, um who are, yeah really working to build these spaces and celebrate all of our bodies and minds. Um, and I will share a few of those writings and teachings here.
Erica: Awesome. So, if you would like to find those resources, they’ll be linked in the notes to this episode, and they’ll be on our website. At S as in Sam, C as in cat, Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on social media @SCMusicProject - we’re on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram - all the places. If you find this podcast helpful for your learning, for your growth, um for whatever you’re doing in your life, please subscribe. Please leave a review - this helps other people to find us - share with your friends, your family, anybody in your circles - in your network.
Thank you so much, Yana, for chatting with us —
Yana: Yeah —
Erica: And sharing your wisdom and your expertise and your experiences.
Yana: Thank you.
Erica: And thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays]