Ep. 003 | Community Music Therapy

Today, we chat with guest, Cassie Fox, a board-certified music therapist, about how they use a community-based approach to music therapy.

LEARN MORE

Community Music Therapy & the Winds of Change by G. Ansdell | Journal Article

Invitation to Community Music Therapy by B. Stige | Book

Community Music Therapy by E. Ruud | Online Article

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about: Community Music Therapy, with board certified music therapist, Cassie Fox. Cassie is a board-certified music therapist, who supports youth and adults during transitional periods, and in using music for expression and emotional release. With nearly 3 years of clinical experience, Cassie has been working with youth in various community settings for over 13 years. Their work is community-oriented, with an anti-oppressive lens and a client-centered approach.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome to the podcast! Um, thank you so much for being with us, Cassie. I think this is your first time on the podcast —

Cassie: Yup!

Erica: Cassie is one of my good friends, in addition to being a wonderful music therapist, and I’m really excited to have you on and talk about community music therapy. I know this is like, your particular thing - kind of your passion project you’re really good at doing community-oriented services. So I’m - I’m excited for listeners to get all of your wisdom and your… nuggets of —

Cassie: Awww! [Laughs]

Erica: Of things - I don’t know. [Chuckles]

Alright, so let’s just like start with the basics. So, I’m assuming, um, for listeners’ sake, that maybe they don’t - have never heard the term community music therapy before… what is - or how do you quote unquote define community music therapy?

Cassie: First, just to say that…. When I’m talking about my work as community centered - or having a community approach to it - um, there is something… in the field of music therapy that people will talk about as community music therapy —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: And, I just want to clarify that the things I describe here may be… a little bit different from some of those definitions that’ll come up - just because my work is not defined.. from studies in what other people have done, but it is defined by my experiences. And, So… to give a - an understanding of what that experiences - and what my background is that has lead me sort of to this approach or orientation… is that, um, I worked for… about 8 years in a public library setting.

Erica: Mmm.

Cassie: So in working in the library, I became very passionate about, um, outreach services - and eventually took a position I the outreach department so I could really focus on that work. And that work was very much about, um, taking services and resources to people - so that, not only was that access available in the library, but that that could also be accessible to people what - wherever they were in the community.

Erica: Okay, wow! Yeah.

Cassie: Yeah —

Erica: We’ve talked - we’ve talked personally about your work in the library system before, and what that looked like - I know you have tons of experience working particularly with adolescents —

Cassie: Mmhmm, yeah.

Erica: Um - um, yeah. And accessibility… is a huge thing - I know personally to you that that matters - that people have access to resources?

Cassie: Right.

Erica: Okay, so earlier you - when I asked you about defining community music therapy, you had said that yours looks a little bit different than textbook community music therapy? Can you tell me more about what that… difference is or looks like for you?

Cassie: Mmhmm, yeah. I think that I would just wanted to clarify that, because my experience… is defined by work in the community before  it was defined by anything music therapy related, um,  that… that that informs - as our experiences do - that that informs the work that I do —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: So I just wanted to clarify that, while there are other individuals who have also come to… sort of a community orientation or approach to music therapy, that what they have written about may… sound differently than what I do. But really, we may just have different ways of defining what community music therapy looks like… to each of us.

Erica: Okay, sure.

Cassie: Does that make sense?

Erica: Yes - yeah, yeah.

Cassie: Okay.

Erica: So, another - I have another clarifying question - is that a common phrase that we hear in the arts community is: community music, quote unquote.

Cassie: Mmm —

Erica: And so what is the difference between community music therap - community music therapy, yes, and community music?

Cassie: Yeah! Yeah… I think this is important and helpful. So… Honestly, I think the - the short and specific difference is that community music therapy… is something that is facilitated by a board certified music therapist.

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: Whereas community music - or community music experiences or performances, those can be events or situations that are facilitated by performers… or, you know, situations like where you might have an orchestra uh member who goes and plays for people in the hospital - um, audience participation pieces… So it can just be… Community music, in my mind, it has kind of this very loose, all encompassing definition? Whereas community music therapy is more focused on… just that it is facilitated by a music therapist.

Erica: Okay. And so then that facilitation- what does that bring to the table in a community program that you might not find in a different music community program?

Cassie: Hmm… So, I think probably… one of the biggest differences, in my mind, um - just when I think of music therapy in comparison to other fields, is that music therapy is a very process-oriented experience? So, while I might have some of my groups that are focused around learning music, I’m not as focused on the individual’s technique or the way they are learning music so that they are - meaning, are they reading a piece of music, or are they following my fingers on the keys to learn the music. Any of that is okay in music therapy. But music is more the process we are moving through than music is the objective.

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: The objective is more focused on… here’s this person - or here are these people - in this space… what do they need, or what do they want. And let’s use music to help achieve that.

Erica: Mmm. Okay. Yeah, so when - uh in the very first episode, we talked about what is music therapy, and Vee, who is our mutual colleague —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: Was talking about how music therapy essentially is, a music, relationships, and boundaries —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: And the boundaries is is that therapeutic relationship part —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: Um, and so it sounds like - community music therapy is just adding a communal - or social element —

Cassie: Yeah, absolutely —

Erica: To that definition, and then working towards… whatever that predetermined goal or objective is for that —

Cassie: Yeah —

Erica: Person or group.

Cassie: Absolutely.

Erica: Yeah. So we’ve already touched on your library experience with com - community programming through the library. Um, how does your - that personal experience, or other personal experiences you have - how does that impact your approach to community music therapy?

Cassie: I found, through my library work, and… in working in various grassroots um… community organizations, that… approaching situations - approaching experiences with people with a -a certain level of flexibility or fluidity —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: Um… despite whatever experiences or resources I was bringing into the space - as opportunities for what could happen that day - lead to just a lot of meaningful relationship building, and, you know, um, opportunities you didn’t necessarily walk in the door expecting would be present - because you were open to those developing through… that lived experience with someone else.

Erica: Mmm. I really like that. Yeah, having - the - it’s centered on relationships… and centered on, like the reality of what’s happening, and not this - here are like what as I perceive as your circumstances and then coming in like with a set agenda —

Cassie: Exactly —

Erica: For what’s going to happen.

Cassie: Exactly.

Erica: It’s responding in the moment… to whatever is hap - happening, so then that - then, I assume, if that is your primary modality of doing therapy - you are very good at improvising and adapting to situations.

[Cassie and Erica laugh]

Cassie: [Laughing] I try to be. But I think - yeah - I think that that’s kind of the point. And I think that, um, that’s something that can be a little confusing or chaotic to people sometimes —

Erica: Sure —

Cassie: Or - or disorganized, or maybe, um, unprepared?

Erica: Yeah.

Cassie: But in actuality… you came in with - well, as people say in many professions, a lot of tools in your tool belt —

Erica: Yeah —

Cassie: Right. You came in with all kinds of ideas about what could happen that day, so you’re - you’re prepared for… a variety - but you’re also prepared for the fact that things could go very differently than you had planned.

Erica: Absolutely.

Cassie: I think even - I think teachers - I think people in all kinds of fields… experience this every day. SO I think that’s like… very relatable —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: Across —

Erica: Yeah!

Cassie: Yeah.

Erica: so - what - can you describe maybe like one of the programs… that you primarily facilitate - ‘cause I know you co-facilitate with some other therapists? And…can you describe maybe like an example when you thought you were going to do X activity, and then you had to change it up based on… the circumstances of that moment?

Cassie: Mmm… Let me - I’m - I think I’m gonna give you an example of… a group that is fairly open ended to begin with —

Erica: Okay —

Cassie: Which is a group that… sort of existed in a different way a few years ag - I guess a year ago. [Chuckles] Sorry… formerly existed in a different way.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Cassie: Um… but that I started again in December. And it’ a teen community music therapy group. Um, and so, for that group - that group lasts for an hour. The youth come in, we -we sit down -we’re sitting down in a circle so that everyone’s together. Therapist, intern, teens, and any staff that had come with them, uh, ‘cause sometimes staff from various sites that are transporting the youth will also attend. So – so - kinda I guess drawing on that community-oriented approach, we’re all in it together - we’re all sitting side by side - we’re all gonna participate. That’s what that looks like. They had a recent session, um, that was a very small group. And… just because of how people came into that space that day - and because, you know, youth that I was familiar with had shown up that day, so I already had some understanding of things they were into… I said, hey, what if we -what if we just, like, listen to some music and talk about music that’s important to us right now? So we actually - I didn’t anticipate that being the whole session, but that ended up being the whole session —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: Just because there were some other things that came up - or that people needed to talk about that day - and so we just held space for that, and just let it be.

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: And then, um, at the very end of that session, I think I played through the chorus of “Count on Me” or something - like a song that… I anticipated many people to be familiar with, so that they could sing along with it if wanted to —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: And something to just… bring us all back in together - and maybe… ground us a little bit after some personal things had been shared —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: And that’s what that session… looked like - that was different from… the usual.

Erica: The usual —

Cassie: Yeah.

Erica: That’s super cool! I really like that. You’ve alluded to, several times, that the community music therapy approach allows for organic and spontaneous moments… where clients can express and be vulnerable, and you’re holding space for that - that doesn’t fall within like a preset agenda - and you’re not really rigid to that agenda.

Um, does the community music therapy approach… impact client progress - does it… increase progress - does it just - is it just a different modality? Prog - there’s no like way to track like the difference…? Does that make sense? ‘Cause there are different approaches to the way you can facilitate any therapy - music therapy, talk therapy, etc —

Cassie: Mmm… Are you saying, does it impact progress differently than another modality would?

Erica: Yeah.

Cassie: I… would be hesitant to… suggest that community music therapy encourages a greater m - amount of progress than any other approach - mostly because I believe that… a therapist using an approach that is authentic and valuable to them is going to have the most impact for that particular therapist. I can say, that for myself, being someone who finds it - being someone who prioritizes sort of this anti-oppressive, client-centered approach… that… it is very important to me to… facilitate in a way that is supportive… and… makes people - that helps people to feel safe in a space —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: Because they know there is someone there… and they have some understanding of my purpose in being there, and that it’s important - that they are important to me - that it’s important to me to be in that space. So… does that make sense?

Erica: Yeah.

Cassie: So there’s that. But… it’s important to me to - sort of like, break down some of those power structures - because I feel like, once we can break some of those down, that’s where there’s the real opportunity for people to… be empowered in the space? And to encourage authentic expr - expression, because when we are empowered, then there might be more opportunity for that. So, that’s kind of where, when I was describing… that everyone in the space, whether it’s the teens in the group, or myself - if it’s an intern, or another therapist - um, or if there are other staff or teachers , that we are all sitting there and in it together, and that there is this awareness of… we all can participate in this… Yeah.

Erica: I really like that —

Cassie: It helps - yeah —

Erica: I really like that.

Cassie: And it gives that sense of… I guess, like - so community, right? Going beyond just what I am getting out of this as an individual, but having the opportunity to connect to, not only my - like if you’re a teen, not only my peers - but also… maybe now today, I’m connecting to the therapist - I’m also connecting to the staff person. Because, like usually, they’re maybe in charge - I feel like they’re in charge of me… in whatever capacity they work with me in —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: But in this music space —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: Because that staff person’s not the one facilitating, it sort of creates this opportunity where they can engage with one another, and get to know one another in in another sort of way —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: And so that… helps, I guess, just helps facilitate some bonding within those other relationships that are outside of me and the individuals I’m working with - if that makes sense?

Erica: That makes a lot of sense. Um, in the social justice in music therapy episode, we talked quite a bit about the power - inherent power structure —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: In a therapist-client relationship —

Cassie: Good —

Erica: And so I really like, um, how you apply that, uh, knowledge, I guess… to the community approach - and I guess that’s kind of the driving force for you —

Cassie: Yeah —

Erica: Behind… the community approach is that, by being in community - where everyone is as much on the same plane as reasonably possible - ‘cause you’re never going to totally get rid of inherent power structures —

Cassie: Right - right —

Erica: That - that kind of - that is what is creating organic moments, and greater vulnerability, and… etc, etc.

Cassie: Absolutely. And I think, because - because of that - because of those inherent power structures - that’s part of the reason… it is so important that we are practicing - that we are being reflexive in our practices, and that we are spending time reading - or exploring, like an understanding of other voices in the world - outside of, like, our own therapeutic… facilitation?

Erica: Sure.

Cassie: Um, so- - right now, I’m taking a social justice as - like, social justice approaches in music therapy course for this reason. Because… while I’m already… I’ve already taken some steps and like, you know, I’m trying to like do the best that I can, I know that there’s always more work that we can do. And so, I’m trying to…gain more understanding in how… I can do things better.

Erica: Exactly. I love that. Continuing education is never a bad thing —

Cassie: No [Chuckles]—

Erica: Like, always be learning - always be growing.

Cassie: Uh huh.

Erica: Um, and you - you and you’re - your clients - your clients will… receive the benefit from that.

Cassie: Yeah!

Erica: If you don’t have clients, you’ll still receive the benefit from that. Yeah.

Cassie: Yeah, and I’ve been - I feel like I have been so lucky, because - not only like, here at the Music Project, but, you know also, when I’ve worked for the library, I’ve just been really lucky to work in environments where… that is encouraged - where this idea of learning through life and learning to enhance the work that you do… is prioritized.

Erica: That’s awesome - yeah. Yay us!

Cassie: Yeah! [laughs]

Erica: We love it! Okay, well, thank you so much for talking with us today about community music therapy. Do you - for listeners that want to learn more - do you have any resources you recommend? Like books, podcasts? —

Cassie: Do you want me to state them?

Erica: Online - well if you don’t have any on top of your head, that’s totally okay. What we do - for listeners’ notice and for you - is… we put them in the episode notes, and they’re also on the website.

Cassie: Yes. Yeah - no, I have some suggestions - it’s just that… names are not always

Erica: That’s okay - that’s okay —

Cassie: Right in my head, so —

Erica: So listeners, if you would like to know more about community music therapy, you can check out our website. It is S - as in Sam - C - as in cat - Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org) - go to the podcast page and we’ll put the resources - links and such in there for you - I’ll get them from Cassie later.

Cassie: Absolutely.

Erica: Um, also, if you’d like to learn more about the Snohomish County Music Project, you can follow us on social media, across all the major platforms, at SCMusicProject. Next week, we have a brand, new guest: Colby Cumine. He is also one of our mutual colleagues - he is a fantastic music therapist, and he’ll be sharing with us about the - a trauma-informed approach to music therapy, particularly in regards to a therapist’s interactions with a client, as well as the impacts of trauma-informed care on assessments and other administrative tasks. Um, thank you again, Cassie, for joining us.

Cassie: Yeah, thank you.

Erica: Thank you, listeners, for listening, and we will talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]