Ep. 62 | Trust Between White Therapists and Black Clients

Today, we chat with Kateri Collins, an Expressive Arts graduate student, about how the arts can support understanding between white therapists and Black clients.

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project.  My name is Erica Lee. Today is the first of 2 episodes with Kateri Collins, and we’re chatting about how white therapists can build trusting relationships with Black clients. Please note that this episode includes content about post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, Black racial trauma, and white supremacy.

Kateri Collins is an Expressive Arts therapy graduate student at Lesley University. She identifies as a Black queer woman, who wants to fight for both the Black and LGBTQIA community. She is an artist, a musician, a poet, and loves children. She’s very excited to work with young kids doing play therapy in her final year of Clinicals.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Well, welcome, Kateri, to the podcast. Thank you for being here – I really appreciate your time. Um, I wanna get started with a question we ask everybody that comes on the podcast is: how did you originally become interested in expressive arts therapy?

Kateri: Well that is a great question, ‘cause it is a very um small field — [chuckles] ut very exciting. Um, so I never heard of expressive arts before, but when I transferred to Lesley for undergrad, I had heard a class about it, I took a class, and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing! [chuckles] 

[Erica chuckles]

Kateri: And I’d always been interested in psychology. And um, realized I had been kind of een doing the arts throughout my whole life — like I’m a musician, I play the flute and sing, I’ve done a lot of musical theatre and regular theatre, dance, and music, and I write a lot of poetry. And so, when I realized the power of the expressive arts, and how arts can be so healing — even just for myself and how involved I was in the arts — I was like, yeah. This is – this is what I wanna do. Um, and so, I found out they had a masters program, and so I went on to expressive arts. Because I had engaged in kind of all of the arts, um I decided that it would be best for me to do the expressive arts, since you kinda dabble in a little bit of everything.

Erica: Totally. That sounds awesome. Um, I’m really excited to talk with you — I read your thesis – it was so good, so much to think about.

Kateri: Thank you.

Erica: For listeners, uh, the thesis is about decolonizing the expressive arts, and so that’s what we’re gonna talk about throughout this conversation. And I will also include a citation, and if I can, a link to Kateri’s work, so that you can go ahead and explore that for yourself. Um, so the first thing I want to start off with is: there’s a difference between how the DSM defines PTSD and what PTSD related to racial trauma feels and looks like. But, in thinking about these 2 different ways we consider PTSD, how would you think about approaching a client, or caring for a client, who has overlap between the 2 types of PTSD? And what could they gain from or expect from a therapy experience?

Kateri: One thing is – so our listeners know – that PTSD is post-traumatic stress disorder—

Erica: Yes—

Kateri: And often times – by the DSM, PTSD is based on one major traumatic event. But when we think about racial trauma, it is continuous. It’s never just one event – it’s throughout life. Yes, there can be major like racial trauma events, but yeah, it’s continuous. Whereas, regular PTSD is based on really one event.

Um, one thing that I am particularly interested in, and which a lot of clinicians are talking about and actually use the term, but the DSM has not put it in there, is complex PTSD.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: So, complex PTSD is about numerous events – why it’s called complex: because it’s not one event - and it can be continuous. And so, if I was gonna relate like racial trauma, I would relate it to complex, because racial trauma is very complex; you could have a minor incident, a huge incident, and there is a difference between the two. Um, but in terms of providing like therapy for it, one huge thing for both PTSD and racial trauma, or like continuous trauma, is providing a safe and trusting space. Which is extremely important, because, often with PTSD, some sort of trust has been broken—

Erica: Mmm—

Kateri: Um, and there can be triggers. And when you are able to create a very trusting and safe space, this allows for better internal work to be done. And part of that – once the trust is able to be established, then you can work on coping skills, um – even in terms of like incorporating the expressive arts – especially with trauma, you can’t just like come right out and be like, hey, tell me your story! [Laughs] No, that’s just not gonna how it’s gonna work—

Erica: [Laughing] Yeah

Kateri: And so, especially with the arts, because they can be so powerful, is allowing for the process to naturally happen. And so, that might mean one day we’re  doing art – or some form of the arts – and in another session, there isn’t. But, even in that process, allowing for time, patience, and understanding um through the art work, and even through the talking, to allow for the um process of healing to go through.
So it’s – there’s so many things that can happen, but a lot of it, like I said, is developing a trusting and safe space, allowing for the art process to go on their time—

Erica: Mmm—

Kateri: And giving them time and patience to tell the story — however that might be: through the art, verbally, both. But you really need to have that container – that really safe and trusting container to allow the process to naturally happen.

Erica: Yeah. I really like the – you just said um going at their pace – at the client’s pace. And it just reminds me of how any kind of therapy experience, regardless of what discipline you’re in specifically: just, therapy is not this linear process, it’s an all-over process, and you’re moving up and down, and backwards and forwards, kind of all simultaneously at the same time—

Kateri: Exactly. And, I mean, it can literally take years – years of processing. Um, and sometimes, you could start a process, stop, and then restart it many years later.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Kateri: Trauma work is not easy. It’s complex. And you just really have to give that person the – the space, and time, and healing to be able to do all that.

Erica: Yeah. Um, in your work, you cite lack of cultural complex in therapists as a significance hindrance in racial trauma healing, particularly the lack of training in learning curriculums and professional development. How does talking about building a trusting space – how does cultural competence support a trusting therapeutic relationship, especially between Black clients and white therapists?

Kateri: Yes. So, this is a really important piece, not also in working environment. But, specifically in therapy, when an individual is culturally competent, they have the ability that that person can understand/respect the values, the attitudes, beliefs, and other aspects of um different cultures.

Um so, kind of when a white clinician is going into a session with a Black client there’s kind of this minimal foundation – that they’re not going in blind – um ‘cause they have some sort of kinda foundation of information – of learning – from the Black culture – from doing cultural competence training.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: Um, but one important thingm that I feel is really important, that would help with white clinicians working with Black clients is that white clinicians like start off by admitting that they come from, and grew up in, a white supremacy environment and history.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: Also, admitting that they have more privilege than their own client. And also stating that they don’t know  all about the Black culture, and open to learning and also correction. So when you bring – I feel like, when you bring this to the table, it helps to increase that trust.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: Because the – the therapist - white therapist is admitting like, okay, I don’t know everything. I’m here to help you, but I’m also willing to learn as I’m willing to help you as well. 

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri:  And so the – it’s so important to have that education of learning cultural competence. But even if there’s not much training in the educational system for becoming a therapist, I think even if therapists just admit that yes, I grew up in a white supremacy environment, I do have more privilege, I a willing to learn – please correct me — I think just those simple, basic things would help Black clients, or even other clients of color in general—

Erica: Mmhmm—

Kateri: Just to kinda help build that trust. ‘Cause white clinicians aren’t gonna know everything.

Erica: Totally—

Kateri: They are gonna make mistakes. They are gonna make assumptions. And if they – you know, if I make a mistake, please correct me. And then, the Black client or the uh client of color can be like, okay, you know, I can have like this conversation with this person that’s trying to help me, but also know that, hopefully, if feelings do get hurt, that they can work through that in a positive way.

Erica: Yeah. You’re using the word admit, and I wonder about um if we need to be explicit in saying like – to me, admit means like out loud acknowledge—

Kateri: Yes—

Erica: Not just in your mind – like say these things to yourself. And there’s so much power in out loud saying something – there’s power in speaking things over yourself, and there’s power in speaking those things to the person you’re working with.

Kateri: Yes.

Erica: I um live in a fat body. And so, there’s a lot of power when my therapist, who has thin privilege, acknowledges her thin privilege to me in the middle of a session. And I’ve been working with her for over a year, and it’s still – it’s not a just the you meet with them thing – it’s a continual thing. And then also, if there is feedback to be given, or there is a thing to resolve, how you, as a clinician, responds to it matters immensely.

Kateri: Yes.

Erica: You can’t just say, go ahead and give me the feedback. You have to really then integrate it back into your practice.

Kateri: Yes.

Erica: Oof, I get fired up about that one. [Laughs]

Kateri: [Chuckles] It’s understandable.

Erica: [Chuckles] Um, when I was reading through your thesis, this thought really stuck with me. It says – I’ll just read it – it says, “the expressive arts also have the ability to internally heal the body’s trauma. This often includes both the arts and spirituality.” I’m curious, from your perspective, how do you address the spiritual domain within your work? And what can this look like? I think we talk a lot about physical things, cognitive things, other parts of our humanity, but the spiritual domain isn’t something that’s addressed as much.

Kateri: Yeah. And, especially spirituality – I do wanna phrase that spirituality does not mean religion.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: And you can – often times, spirituality is having a belief in a higher power, um, and that could mean anything for anyone. And so, I think that spirituality, especially, I can say for um African Americans/Blacks, that often, having connection to a higher being has um lead them to be able to feel a bit stronger.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: And, even in terms of like the spirituality in arts, back in slavery, they would – in terms of that someone is running away so their slave masters wouldn’t know this, is that they would actually sing. And a lot of their songs that they song are stated as spiritual songs. And so, it was a way of coding, but it was also integrating the art of singing with also being spiritual at the same time.

Even if um you’re a clinician and you’re not a spiritual person, ‘cause there’s many people who arent’, um, but if you do have a client that is, definitely recognizing that and validating that. Um, and even if you aren’t a spiritual person, having that client bring in maybe a music, or writing what their higher being means to them, and allowing them to kinda communicate how that involves um in their life, and how that can be used to maybe develop coping skills, or work through various issues that are going on, so…

Erica: Mmm. That validation piece is just so important to the therapeutic process. Um, a new term to me is artivism. Um, is that – am I saying that correctly—?

Kateri: Yeah, artivism—

Erica: That was something I discovered yeah in your thesis. And so I wanna talk about it a little bit. For listeners that might be unfamiliar with the term, can you just describe what it is, and then maybe what your experience has been with it as a coping strategy?

Kateri: Sure. So art-i-vis-m: basically, what it is: it’s art and activism combined together. And, as we think about activism, it’s really solely about social change, while, when you incorporate the arts, the arts actually move a person in a very powerful way. I’m sure you even know in music therapy that it really moves the person’s heart, body, and soul. And art speaks to us in a way that activism may not necessarily do alone.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: So, when you kind of combine the two of activism and art to create artivism, it creates a space where the art can impower them to give them more desire for social change, and to allow it to move in a way that is more emotionally powerful to enact change.

Erica: Yeah. So we have been, I think, coping with this and using this without consciously naming it. Sorry, I feel like I cut you off. Can you tell me more about your experience—

Kateri: That’s okay—

Erica: I just got so excited about it for a second [chuckles]

Kateri: [Chuckles] Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, it’s kinda one of those things where it’s being used, but it just – this term kind of just recently came out and I just stumbled upon it.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: There are so many examples across the country. For example, the Black Lives Matter movement creating street art to create more powerful and moving messages through the art – that you can see a piece of art without having words and just be moved in a way like, wow. And also, because of the pandemic, they’ve been having a lot of restaurants eating outside, and, at least where I live, in Massachusetts, they have started creating like concrete barriers, but they actually have had them paint the barriers.

Erica: Really?

Kateri: Yeah. And so – and it’s – it’s interesting, because where also where I’ve seen a lot of these painted barriers are also in more um cities that are on the lower income. And it’s like, wow, this – this art is absolutely amazing. And so, instead of just having boring concrete barriers, in already not a particularly safe area—

Erica: Mmm—

Kateri: You see this art, and it’s like, okay, this is a more inviting area than what people’s perceptions might be.

Um, I can say, for my own um artivism if we wanna call it—[chuckles]

[Erica chuckles]

Kateri: I would say, it’s definitely been in grad school.

Erica: Mmm.

Kateri: ‘Cause that’s kind of what my life is right now [laughs]

Erica: Sure, yeah.

Kateri: A lot of it has been through poetry, fighting the white supremacy in my program through art, and kinda showing them that some of your practices and some of your education material is so outdated—

Erica: Mmm—

Kateri: You know, and fighting – fighting it through the art, and kind of showing like I’m not going to sit here and just be quiet. [Chuckles]

Erica: Yeah.

Kateri: I am going to voice my opinions verbally, through art, through poetry, through the class. And I think that’s kinda where my um artivism is. Definitely in um the school – I mean, especially what my thesis was, I was like, I’m not gonna sit back and be quiet.

Erica: Yeah.

Kateri: This is information that needs to be out. And I’m okay with the repercussions if there are any.

Erica: If you would like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam C as in cat Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). On our website, you can also find transcripts for every podcast episode. If you want to follow along and receive notifications when new episodes are released, we encourage you to subscribe and connect with us on social media @SCMusicProject.

Thanks again to Kateri for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]