Ep. 047 | Multidisciplinary: Music Therapy & Marriage and Family Therapy
Today, we chat with guest, Chelsea Mazzotta, a board-certified music therapist and licensed marriage & family therapist, about her experiences with training in two therapeutic modalities.
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we chat with Chelsea Mazzotta about her experiences as a therapist with training in two different therapeutic modalities.
Chelsea is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a board-certified music therapist practicing in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. She is the owner of Mazzotta Therapy, and is passionate about healing relationships and understanding the impact of trauma, systematic oppression, and family narratives. Her specialties include the use of creative arts and working with individuals and families impacted by violence.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome to the podcast, Chelsea, I am so glad you are here.
Chelsea: Thanks. Glad to be here.
Erica: So, let’s just get started. This is the question that I ask everybody that’s a music therapist when they come on, is: how did you originally become interested in music therapy?
Chelsea: So, originally, I went to school for voice performance and that was my one and only major. Um, and that was fine and I really enjoyed it, but I thought um how can I maintain this? Like, how can I maintain a living with voice performance - even though I felt I was a pretty good singer - the challenge of that was going to be huge. SO um, we had a music therapy program at school - I initially didn’t think I would be into it. But I had a history of working with folx um who have multiple disabilities, and I really enjoyed it - specifically in high school and early college. And so um I ended up transferring into that program - well, actually adding to that program. Um —
Erica: Oh, you double majored —?
Chelsea: Yeah, I double majored. And it was - there was some overlap, so that was fairly okay. Um, but yeah, I ended up liking it a lot and didn’t expect to, but that’s how I ended up there.
Erica: That’s very cool. Um, so in addition to being a music therapist, you are a marriage and family therapist. Um, what was your experience like - like how did you know that was something you wanted to persue? And then how has that - like what’s your experience with that after getting that done?
Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. Um, so when I was in internship for music therapy - uh, it was a - what was it a 6 or 7 month internship and it was in North Carolina um at the - at a hospice program. And so I was there - I would travel to people’s homes, and that was fine - and I thought, I don’t know if I can do this long-term. And it wasn’t because of anything wrong with the program or things like that - it was because I thought um can I maintain this with cost of living/can I maintain this with voice stuff? Um, and so, Seaton Hill had this program that was marriage and family therapy program, and I didn’t - once again, I didn’t know a lot about marriage and family therapy other than it was being a tlak therapist.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: Um, and so, this was - I think I got done with my internship in February, and I wanna say in March or April I had my - the interview. Long story short, I loved it - um it, um it was a really great program - heavy on social justice, um heavy in vulnerability, accountability, um it was great.
Erica: Awesome. And so then, now as a therapist - I think you’re in private practice? Um, how has your training in these 2 different modalities of doing therapy like informed the overall way that you practice?
Chelsea: I think it expanded the way that I saw therapy in general.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: I think um before going into the marriage and family therapy program, I think - as a music therapist we really have to, a lot of the times, defend ourself in a lot of the work - and defend it as a profession - which you wouldn’t think we would, but —
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: But it feels like something that we are constantly having to do. And because of that, I think I really dug my heels in in terms of I’m a music therapist, here’s what that means. And I think that with the addition of marriage and family therapy, that has sort of allowed me to um utilize tons of different modalities, and not feel like - not put this rigid expectation on myself that just because you’re a music therapist, these are the modalities that you use.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Chelsea: And to me that’s - it felt unfair. And I think it allowed myself to sort of slow down and be like, you don’t have to be this. Like, you don’t have to exist in your - in the defensiveness of the way our profession has had to be for a long time. I think that’s just allowed me to use different mediums - not only music therapy: art therapy, um, you know, emotion-focused therapy. And it has felt, I think, freeing —
Erica: Mmm —
Chelsea: In a lot of ways.
Erica: Mmm. Yeah, you mentioned the defensiveness that we - I’m gonna include myself in this honorary we, even though I’m not a music therapist - but being so intimately in the work of music therapy here. As I’m talking to more music therapists that have some sort of duel um licensure or duel training, that is a reoccurring theme that I’m hearing - that that additional training in a different modality or different discipline provides that freedom. I am starting to have a conversation with myself about like, how would - how would accessing that freedom to not always be in a defensive position —
Chelsea: Yeah —
Erica: Be like maybe better the services that we have? Or, in my particular case, better like the outreach that we’re doing - better the like community engagement that we’re doing - ‘cause I’m not in direct sessions with clients and in that capacity. But it is an interesting thought to think about. It’s also interesting to me that, as I’m talking to different therapists across the United States and not just in the Pacific Northwest, that that is kind of a common theme that’s cropping up and —
Chelsea: Yeah —
Erica: Probably there’s of course like spectrum to it - and spectrum of intensity of how much you feel like you have to defend and advocate and yeah.
Chelsea: Well, I think - I think part of it feels - I get the history of it, and I get why that - that we as a profession have come to sort of exist in this way and see ourselves in this way. Because if - if people don’t understand or value what you do, it - it impacts everything —
Erica: Mmm —
Chelsea: It impacts relationships, it impacts, not only relationships, but it - it impacts income, it impacts a lot. But I was thinking of this thing that kept coming up for me when I was in undergrad: that it sort of felt like that we as music therapists sort of felt we are the only ones who are allowed to provide music in a way that is therapeutic.
Erica: Yes. I’ve heard that, yes.
Chelsea: Right! It’s such an entitled thought process. So wait, people have been using music to cope, understand the world, process trauma, everything for years and years and years and in their specific ways and their specific religions, communities, what have you. And then all of a sudden, we’re like, but you’re not a music therapist, though. So…
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: And it felt like - it felt rather disrespectful, because - because we don’t own music.
Erica: Yeah!
Chelsea: And I think that’s how it has often come across —
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: Is that um we get to use music to heal, but not - not you all.
Erica: Exactly, yeah. That, in and of itself, that idea that we’re the ones that get to say this is okay and this is not okay, is anti - um social justice work and anti-oppressive practice. Also, in like - in thinking about just trauma work, just to tell somebody like, this is an acceptable versus unacceptable way to process your trauma is entirely inappropriate.
Chelsea: Right, right right. And I was thinking about, even just what you said, you know we are attempting to be anti-oppressive. And I think, as you were saying that, I thought about: I don’t know if all of us are. I think part of my struggle, as an active music therapist who exists in the community, is that there have been multiple times that I have thought, we are not doing well as a community. Like, we are not doing well as a profession, in the ways that we um engage in social justice stuff —
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: And I think there are many things that we continue to do - still in our programs, still in - in, you know, trainings and such - that I think are actively oppressive. For example, um music therapy trips, they feel actively oppressive to me. Meaning: music therapy trips that feel saviorist to me.
Erica: Yes.
Chelsea: And think we have not slowed down enough to think, okay, what is the actual impact of this on - on people, and ourselves? And what are - what are we seemingly getting um with this saviorist perspective that um that we need to process for ourselves as well?
Erica: Exactly. I - I totally agree with you um in terms of how that operates within the music therapy community,. I also really struggle with that with like personal life, and like the way that other nonprofits and charities - even the word charity now feels very cringy to me. Um, the way that saviorism just permeates —
Chelsea: Right —
Erica: The way that we see quote unquote doing good.
Chelsea: Yeah. Yes.
Erica: Um, and I do think we need to reexamine um structures and policies, and like how we engage in the community to support others rather than wanting to lift up and support people.
Chelsea: Right.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: And there’s an inherent message - and I like what you said there because it feels like there’s an inherent message with if I’m serving, or if I’m um, you know, out in the community, there’s an inherent message that I’m doing better. And I - and I get to um give to all these folx who are not doing as well - or seemingly so.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: And it’s - and it’s very odd to me. Because: A - that’s an assumption and B - that’s an assumption. So like, what’s happening us in terms of - in terms of the way that we are actively oppressive, that we see ourselves as - or potentially, not always - but that - that we see ourselves as sort of, you know, being stable/being well, and we see all these other folx as not well, or not well enough to the standards..
Erica: Absolutely, yeah. Um, Within the practice that you’re doing now - so I know that you’re doing a lot of work around trauma —
Chelsea: Mmhmm —
Erica: Um, and it can be very intense or heavy moments. Um can you tell us just for like background for listeners - because we’ve already talked a little bit what is the work that you’re doing, and maybe the work that you were doing recently, before you started your private practice?
Chelsea: Sure. SO um, so before I had my um marriage and family therapist license, and I was an MT-BC solely, um, I worked with predominantly older adults in Alzheimer’s/dementia care, um as well as hospice care, um multiple disabilities, and in-patient psych. And so those - those were my um primary focuses.
And then, after graduate school, um I was working as a therapist in an agency that worked primarily, and only, with folx who have experienced trauma in a - in a criminal way. So that was, for example, survivors of homicide victims, that was um, you know, victims of attempted homicide, that was victims of rape and sexual assult, that’s um - ran a few groups that - 2 of those groups were groups of um parents or caregivers of kids who had been sexually assaulted. But it was all trauma and abuse. And so that’s where I was for about, you know, 3 or 4 years.
And then - so sort of concurrently with that, in 2019, I opened my own practice, which was um - it’s called Mazzotta Therapy. And um I did a lot of in-home work with folx - so music therapy and otherwise. And then - what was it, last year around June - I also joined with a practice called the Center for Relational Change, which is a group practicing here in Pittsburg. But yeah, so it’s sort of differentiated now, in terms of um type of therapy, but yeah, predominantly trauma work.
Erica: Yeah. Um, in your experience with trauma work, what are some misconceptions people tend to have about trauma - trauma recovery, healing - any - whatever word you like to use?
Chelsea: So, for folx who have had a lifetime of trauma, usually they are not aware of that, because their lifetime of trauma is their baseline of existing. And so, um the fact that um seeing dad consistently physical assult mom does not register as trauma, seeing parents -witnessing parents be actively addicted to drugs or alcohol does not register as trauma, not having access to food and water at various points in life does not register, once again, as trauma. And so, it doesn’t occur to them that - that there’s anything other than trauma and abuse.
Erica: Sure.
Chelsea: Um, there have also been folx who only register trauma as something that’s severe. Everyone has things in their history that have been traumatic, everyone has wounds in their family of origin that are traumatic for them, and messages and narratives that have been traumatic for them over their lifetime. And so, I think just - um, there’s a preconception that either I do have trauma, or I don’t have trauma. And there’s varying degrees to which people like categorize that.
Erica: Mmm. That is really interesting.
Chelsea: And I think - I think, too, to expand upon that a little bit, like, especially in the now, we’re having more conversations about - about race as trauma.
Erica: Mmhmm —
Chelsea: But not only race, but um gender, gender identity, sexual orientation - and I think people also don’t realize that that is trauma. So like, existing in a world that actively oppresses you, and doesn’t allow you to have the resources that you need to survive in the world —
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: Is trauma.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: And like, an entire society that demeans your existence is trauma!
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: And I think people don’t even - once again, because they’ve lived their life in their skin/with their gender/what have you, I think people don’t realize the every day traumas that they have normalized in their life.
Erica: Mmm. That’s a really good point, yeah. As a therapist now, what are some of the ways that you are working towards social justice?
Chelsea: So a couple things that - that stand out um pretty largely. So, one is that we - in our practice, we have um supervision, where - we have supervision with one another as a group, but we also have supervision if we want to with the owner of Center for Relational Change. And um, we consistently talk about how our own um race and gender impacts - etc and all the isms um impact us in session —
Erica: Mmm —
Chelsea: And impact safety with our clients.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: And so, I think one of the things that I consistently think of, and that we’ve also processed in supervision is: um we talk about this concept, as therapists, of building safety with clients, and having clients feel like the therapeutic relationship is strong and feels safe, and be able to be vulnerable. But when we slow down, what happens when you are helping your client heal, and you are actively oppressing them at the same time? Because that’s what happens all the time in session.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: And so we’re asking - so for example, if I’m in a session with, for example, a Black woman, I am actively her oppressor - like, through life, I’m going to actively be her oppressor. So I have to think about, not only to myself how do I not do that, or, even if I can’t get out of that privilege - which I can’t step out of that - how - how can I be accountable outside of session and in the session with her around the things that I do that are hurtful to her, even if it’s not during session.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: And so, I’ve had to have, you know, very difficult conversations with clients about that. Um, and the other piece that I keep thinking about - especially when it comes to race, is - for example, I’ll say people of color, but specifically Black folx - um, Black folx feel like they have to caretake us. Because if they bring up conversations about race in spaces with white people, white people flip out. They can flip out, they can actively harm people of color, and so, there has been this sort of process where um Black folx, at times, caretake us for their own safety needs.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: And, when they stop - because they’ve had enough - we, also, as white people, become enraged. We become enraged that we have to sit with our accountability and privilege. And so, some of that has been me sitting with um people of color don’t have to caretake me. They can also be done with my crap - they can also be annoyed with white people - and I have to sit in that. Because they have reason to be irritated at white people, and reason to be angry at white people.
Erica: Mmhmm —
Chelsea: And so, some of that is sitting with the stuff that comes up for me when I’m thinking, okay, Chelsea, this person has stopped caretaking you, and that’s okay. And this, not only is a pplied just to conversations about race, but also about gender and sexuality and other things.
Erica: I just had a conversation before we started this this afternoon about like accountability and race, and - and I don’t think there’s anybody, therapist or not therapist, that - race impacts - let’s just focus on race for a second specifically - um like that doesn’t impact your life in some way. Um, maybe if you think it doesn’t impact your life, that’s because you just carry the privilege that you’re not having to recognize the way that that maybe positively benefits your life. Um, and I think we could do more to talk about like accountability particularly white folx to white folx, and not always having to have the person of color come in and like have that conversation.
Chelsea: Yes! That is taxing!
Erica: Yeah!
Chelsea: That just feels so taxing to me. Yeah, and I think we also aren’t good as - at - as, you know, white folx, about having conversations about race only when the room is full of other white people. Like, and - and that’s another example - I’m glad you said that of like the caretaking we expect, you know, Black folx to consistently teach us about our wrong doing. Like, no! Like, we have the resources - we know it exists —!
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: You know, we can have those conversations, too.
Erica: Exactly —
Chelsea: Um, but I think one of the ways - and I think maybe this - that is where I tangented to - that I’m doing that is not only challenging myself around my own um my own racism and my own privilege - and not only that, but having conversations with people who are important to me, um that are difficult.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: So I think, one thing that - that comes to mind is that - I think historically, and maybe now to some extent, too - when conversations would get difficult, um I could actively make a choice to opt out of those conversations with -with family and friends. Um, if I get tired, if I get exhausted, if I get annoyed - I could just opt out. And I think, one thing that has become important is to realize that like people of color can’t opt out. Like, their life depends on it.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: So, if I. - if I allow myself to opt out, that is my privilege. My privilege is if I choose to opt out, I’m not impacted. And so I - I’ve tried to be more conscious about having conversations with people, and not allowing myself to opt out, even when it gets difficult.
Erica: Yeah. This is a good conversation. I’m thinking um, as we’re talking about like the different experiences we have that layer over time - and also thinking back to the earlier part of our conversation about the defensiveness we can feel in the music therapy community over our profession - um, how have your personal or professional experiences helped define or shape like what it means for you to be a music therapist, or how you like consider that or hold that?
Chelsea: Well a couple things. I think, previous to becoming a marriage and family therapist, I don’t know that I thought about accountability - like at all.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: Not at all. And so, I think I had a very sort of rigid mindset of I am the helper and you are the person who needs assistance.
Erica: Mmm.
Chelsea: Which is so messed up. Like, let me just - that is messed up. And I think I have grown and continue to grow, you know, in my own sort of transition to like what does it mean to be consistently self-reflective? I have to constantly be working and - and, you know, on the the ways that I impact people - on the ways that I think and feel about myself, and how I project that onto others and vice versa. And so, I think, whereas before there was that rigid concept of um I’m an expert and you are a client seeking assistance, and I am going to help you —
Erica: Mmm —
Chelsea: And now it is: we’re working together on goals, we’re working together on processing trauma, we’re working together on figuring out what that means. We are equals. I don’t know more than you know about you - you’re the expert on you.
Erica: Yeah.
Chelsea: How can I say I know more? That doesn’t even make any sense! And so, once I started to sit with that, I was like, I’m not an expert. I went to school - okay - yeah, I know how to have the conversation. It doesn’t mean I have knowledge to fix. By the theory that I use, I’m not going to tell folx what to do and what’s the best choice. I have no idea what’s the best choice. I’m not you.
Erica: Yeah —
Chelsea: How do I know?
Erica: Yeah. I feel like we could talk about this for like hours and hours.
[Chelsea chuckles]
Erica: There’s so many like different facets of this and like different ways to think about it and imagine it - and to reimagine it. Um, but we are coming to the end of our - our time for today. DO you have any closing thoughts or um things that you would like to offer at the end of this conversation?
Chelsea: Hmm. I don’t know - I think one thing that I - that I have taken away, at least, from - from some of my work is that you never stop self-reflecting, and processing, and - and working toward healing for yourself and others - but also toward social justice work. Um, but I think the one thing that I would hope to leave folx with is that music therapy doesn’t have to be rigid - and our use of it doesn’t have to be rigid, and our defensiveness um in the profession, to me, represents our woundedness. And I think that, for us as clinicians, that’s something that we have to figure out is: how do we continue to make this profession more accessible and welcoming to folx, while not continuing to - to project our woundedness onto them as well.
Erica: Mmm, yeah. That’s good. Um, I appreciate you being here and chatting and diving into all of this. It really has been a really good conversation - I’m really excited for listeners to join us.
Chelsea: Great.
Erica: Um, if people are curious, where can they find you - um where are you at?
Chelsea: Um, online, I can be found at MazzottaTherapy.com. Um, I can also be found on Psychology Today - my name is Chelsea Mazzotta - if you just google that, you - you should be able to find me. Um, and then as I said before, I also work at a practice called the Center for Relational Change, which can also be googled.
Erica: Yeah. We’ll put all the links on our website and in the episode notes so people can find you. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for being here —
Chelsea: Yay —!
Erica: I really appreciate it.
Chelsea: Thank you for having me, Erica.
Erica: Absolutely.
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Thanks again to Chelsea for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
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