Ep. 057 | Trust, Music & Being Human

Today, we chat with Joshua Pearl, a board-certified music therapist, about being human in the process of music therapy.

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we chat with Joshua Pearl, a board-certified music therapist, about being human in the process of music therapy.

Joshua holds degrees in piano performance and educational theory from Oberlin College and Conservatory of Music, and in music therapy from Pacific University. His early musical career took root in Kyoto, Japan, where he studied traditional Japanese music, while engaging in a variety of spiritual practices, including Zen meditation and tea ceremonies. Joshua was the founder and music director for Crosscurrents, an interdisciplinary, cross-cultural concert series in Japan, before relocating to New York City, where he played in Broadway orchestras, and worked as a jazz and cabaret performer and music director for several years. He spent 12 years in Woodstock, New York, where he worked as a freelance record producer and holistic music educator at the Whole Musician Workshop, an organization he grew to help artists develop their most authentic musical expression and harmonize their personal, professional, and musical lives. In 2010, he relocated to Portland, Oregon, where he now provides music therapy services to a wide variety of people, including patients with neurological problems, mental health challenges, and pain management support needs.

To learn more about his music therapy practice, visit JoshuaPearlMusicTherapy.com.

Also, exciting news: we have our very first sponsorships. So, today’s episode is sponsored by the Seattle Storm and Angel of the Winds Casino Resort.

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And, the very last thing before we get started. We want to say thanks for all of your support over the last year. We’re looking forward to continuing to explore music therapy, and chat with more amazing guests. However, we want to let you know that we are changing our production model to shift from weekly episodes to season-based content. This will be a more sustainable model for us at the Music Project and ensure we can continue to have meaningful conversations. So we’ll be taking a break for a few weeks at the end of March, and encourage you to follow us on social media @SCMusicProject so you don’t miss any new episodes.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: So, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I am really excited to chat today, um and I wanna start with the question that I start with every new guest - is: how did you originally become interested in music therapy? What is your story?

Joshua: Mmm. Well, I think that uh I’ve always related to music as a kind of a healing medium. Right down to like infancy, like my earliest memory’s of like literally reaching up for a piano to express something, and just having it around um was a form of a medicine for me. But the first time I think I thought of music therapy as a path of uh my profession was when I was a patient —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: And had a very serious autoimmune disease that kind of took me out of life for a few years. And I had been a working musician for a few decades before that, and uh I really needed the return to making music just for me, and just for my wellbeing, and for, in this case, pain relief. Um, that’s when I started to really click with a very conscious use of music as therapy.

And it was on the heals of that experience that I uh decided to go back to school, get training, and become a certified music therapist. And that was at age 50, so it’s really a second half of life uh switch for me.

Erica: That’s very cool. I think it’s - it’s really fun to talk to therapists that became therapists later in life, because - you bring all of your other life experiences with you, that when you’re 20-something and doing the traditional like high school, college, have a career path that - of course you bring your life experiences from growing up what not with you, but there is a different type of life experience that comes from living through all of your 20s/30s/40s/and sometimes even through your fifties.

Joshua: Mmhmm.

Erica: Um, how do you think your time spent as a traditional musician/music director, etc. - informed your therapeutic practice now?

Joshua: Mmm. Well, on one level, it’s - uh, it’s uh - it’s a wonderful way to become a music therapist, because I came in with all of this experience - and, with that, all the different skills that I picked up along the way - and repertoire. And I’ve worked in a really diverse set of musical words, and styles, and contexts, so that all is useful as a music therapist. And I don’t see any other way to get that, except to be just gigging and, you know, all the things musicians do to keep themselves um alive - in both - both materially and creatively?

Erica: Yeah.

Joshua: But I think, on a deeper level, the relationship for me is like: music therapy is an answer to a prayer that I’d been asking all those years. Because I wanted music to function as therapy even when I was working as a performer or composer - or the myriad of roles that I was in.

I always had that therapeutic impulse, and often couldn’t - it was really misplaced, you know —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: In the world of performance or craft. So, having all those years really just makes me appreciate um how I can now be direct, and, you know, utilize music as a form a therapy/a form of medicine. Um, and I don’t know if I’d appreciate it the same way if I didn’t feel that —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: Missing piece all those years.

Erica: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your therapeutic approach and philosophy? Just how you practice.

Joshua: You know, music therapy is not a universally-known field. A lot of people, I think, understand intuitively that music can be therapeutic, but when it comes to the profession of music therapy, there are a lot of different approaches you’ll find —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: Um music therapists taking. And that means a lot of different therapeutic orientations. Some are very geared toward looking through the lens of music as a neurological agent that creates change in our brains, that then translates to change in our bodies and behaviors. Others are very behavioral oriented - how can we use music to get people to just very concretely change behaviors. And then you’ll find others - um, and this is probably more where I’m coming from - who have a. humanistic foundation, where I’m interested in developing therapeutic relationships through music.

So I’m very focused on that personal connection. And that was true for me before I was a music therapist. When I would preform, I wanted to connect with the people always in the audience more than I wanted to make it about my craft or my - even my self-expression. I really longed for that connection. I think other foundations that I draw from are the psychodynamic orientation, in which I see music as a way of gaining access to different parts of our psyche that might be difficult um to access in other ways. So always very curious and very oriented psychologically and psychodynamically.

And finally, I - I think that - maybe it’s a term you’ll find a lot of music therapists use, but I love the idea of being eclectic. Not in the sense of being all over the place, but rather, having a foothold in lots of different orientations —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: So when I’m with a client or with a group, I can ask myself: what’s the best orientation/what’s really indicated by what’s being presented to me?

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: And if that means deferring to something I’m not as, you know, oriented to in my own life - like behavioral or neurological - I can still draw, to some extent, from those as well. But at the end of the day, I’m very - I’m a people person, and very into relationships. And I think music therapy, it just goes very well with forming therapeutic relationships.

Erica: Yeah. I’m curious about - you used this term psychodynamic, and I hear it weaved in and out of therapy conversations. What does the term psychodynamic mean to you? What is that?

Joshua: Yeah. Um, it’s a term I didn’t really use before I um was in music therapy. Um, maybe it was so evident to me that I didn’t bother putting a word to it. First of all, I think it’s an umbrella term that really incorporates a lot of different elements - like psychoanalysis or analytic approach. But uh, you know, to break it down, I guess it means that there are these intrapersonal relationships we have without in our own psyche - within any psyche. And those different aspects - uh, some of them, we have access to, some of them are hidden. And, uh, as we know, those forces have a lot to do with who we are and how we behave - whether we’re aware of them or not.

So psychodynamic in music therapy is using music as a way of gaining access, or dialogue with maybe some of those hidden parts. And it is my native orientation, in that ever since I was a little kid, I used to record myself improvising and then listen back as a witness. Like, hmm, what’s - what is that? Who is that? It’s not the me I identify with or no. And so, music’s been this mirror - this auditory mirror that allows me to hear parts of my own psyche.

So I’m sure if you ask other people who are really rooted in psychodynamic traditions, they might give you a very different answer, but for me —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: But for me, it’s that dialoguing with ourselves - conversations with ourselves that we get to have over a lifetime. And I do that practically to this day. I record, I listen, I learn about new parts of myself.

Erica: Mmm. Yeah, that sounds - that sounds really cool. I’m curious - about a lot of things, honestly —

[Joshua chuckles]

Erica: But, when you’re doing this improvisation and then listening back to it, what are you listening for? Or like, what is that process?

Joshua: Mmm. That’s a great question. And, you know, I feel like you’re talking almost like I might as a therapist. Because we all listen for different things, right —?

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: Um, we don’t hear the same way - we don’t listen the same way. So, first of all, paying attention - if I’m doing it with myself or a client - paying attention to what’s popping out. If I play a song for a client, are you listening to the lyrics? Are you listening to the instrumentation? Are you listening to the audio quality? Are you listening to the feelings? Are you listening to the technique of the players? You know, is there some part of your imagination that sparks? Every time I get that answer, whether it’s from another or myself, I now can start to go, okay, that’s how you’re listening —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: Not even just what you’re listening for, but how you’re listening. So, for example, when I was a patient - I had a rare autoimmune disease that left my skin falling apart for a couple of years, and I was in really excruciating pain during most of that time - what I listened for, when I’d make music and listen back, at that time, was all about the pain. It was like, how can the sounds coming to me uh express, or relate to, or, in some ways, cancel out the pain that was in my body.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: And that was a really immersive way - I mean, there’s nothing more immediate than when you’re in physical pain. But I guess I always relate to the music as some kind of a sacred other. It’s like, I’m listening for something beyond me or something bigger than me - and listening for what it has to teach me. Um, so I’m listening like a student —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: What does the music hear - what is the message of the music? And that’s as true when I listen to recorded music or live music or other people’s too, you know. I center myself and I go, okay, what do you hear? I like to call it those four magic words.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: What do you hear. Because, from that, a whole world opens up, just asking yourself that.

Erica: I love that, what do you hear. That’s super cool. It kind of reminds me of a question we ask as part of a trauma-informed approach of: what are you facing and what happened to you.

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: Uh, those questions, though, more create like social context for things - or political context for things —

Joshua: Mmhmm —

Erica: And can also be past, present, future. Whereas what do you hear feels very present —

Joshua: Mmhmm —

Erica: In the moment.

Joshua: Mmhmm.

Erica: And it’s pretty evident to me how much you trust music to do what it is doing —

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: And that, I think, is cultivated over this lifetime —

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: Of interacting with music. How does that trust in music connect to or translate with the development of trust and safety in the therapeutic relationship?

Joshua: Well - and thank you for bringing up, you know, trauma-informed work. Because, in my experience, uh there are more traumatized human beings walking the planet than non-traumatized human beings. Uh, and I would call myself one of the walking wounded as well —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: I had those chapters in my life that are now part of me. It’s natural, when we have a wound of any kind, uh to want to protect it because it’s raw and it’s painful. And so we develop a lot of ways to make our way through the world and not open up those things. Um, but of course, in the therapeutic process, we do want to open them up.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Joshua: And we have to be very mindful, because you’re talking about, you know, extremely delicate/vulnerable parts of - of us. So trust, I think, is the foundation of probably every relationship - but certainly every therapeutic relationship. You know, my - probably my greatest teachers in life are uh my wife, who’s been my life partner for over 30 years, and my kids. You know, often family is where damage is done, and where healing can happen —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: And where things really go. So um, I’ve learned a lot about um what trust means through all those personal relationships, and - and the risk… I don’t think trust is something you can make happen or plan to happen. I think it’s something you can cultivate and intend. But kind of we either do or we don’t, you know? I’m with a client - I don’t expect them to trust me - we’re - we’re getting to know each other, right? And over time, we cultivating - maybe the client intuitively shares something small, and sees if I’m freaked out, or if I judge it, or is this safe? We’re putting out those feelers —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: All the time. So I think a sensitivity to that is a really important part of the skill of developing a therapeutic relationship. Pay attention to the trust dynamics ‘cause they’re gonna be there. Even in our closest relationships, right? If we’re gonna go deeper, we’re still vulnerable. We still - no matter how much we love and trust someone - we’re taking a risk every time we open ourselves.

So music uh is, I think, a really interesting tool to bring into the mix. Because, when I’m with a client, um there’s me, there’s the client, and there’s the music. How the music functions in that relationship can do a lot to building trust. If you’re a musician yourself and you play with someone else, there’s a dialogue going on, and there’s a trust. You’re listening, and you’re communicating - and, in a less trusting musical relationship, you’re gonna take fewer risks. You’re gonna play it safe, maybe you’ll play your part, um you’ll focus on not making mistakes, or being in tempo. But when you go a little deeper, um you may surprise yourself or the other, and you leave some space for the unexpected. That’s really what I long for in my music relationships.

And the issue of trust then, for me, um is another reflexive issue. How much do I trust myself —?

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: How much do I trust the music? How much do I trust my capacity with the music? Can I be humble enough to make a mistake or know what I don’t know sometimes, and go, oh wow, you know, you know something I don’t - tell me more - and not have to keep my therapist authority hat on all the time —?

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: While still holding the space.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: Because that is my role. So —

Erica: Yeah.

Joshua: Yeah.

Erica: Um, in thinking about all the different ways that you have to trust yourself and trust in the music, I’m wondering about how imposter syndrome comes up for you? Or if it comes up for you —

Joshua: Mmhmm —

Erica: And then how you navigate that?

Joshua: Mmm.

Erica: ‘Cause imposter syndrome definitely comes up for me —

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: In tasks that I do on. A somewhat regular basis, and I freak myself out and think, like, oh no, maybe I’m not like qualified enough to do this —

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: Or I don’t have the skillset to accomplish this task. That little voice gets in my head, then I start to question myself.

Joshua: Sure —

Erica: And I - that’s a very human thing. So I imagine that other humans must be experiencing this also.

Joshua: Mmhmm. Yeah. It seems so healthy to me that we’ve even started to call it a syndrome and talk about it. Because I - I agree with you- I think it’s uh very basic to being human to question yourself. And um, we live in a culture that has historically put a great deal of stock in appearing confident.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: Confidence is, um, at least the way I came of age understanding it, is a bit of a mask. It’s not necessarily um a - a measure of someone’s competence. And with music - and I feel really confident, because I’ve spent so many years in uh relationship with music, and learning, and falling on my face plenty of times - and so, I do feel like I’ve built a lot of resilience around that - and that translates to a confidence.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: I’ve put a lot of emphasis on discovering what an authentic expression is. And, I think, authenticity for me is an antidote to the imposter syndrome. So, if I’m with a client, for example - if you’re expressing yourself through music and it’s coming from an authentic place, to me, that’s great music. Literally, that’s the best music. I couldn’t imagine better music than that.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: So, making authenticity a higher priority than craft or sound has gone a long way, I think, um in helping me overcome those aspects of self-doubt. Now being a therapist, of course, brings up a whole other thing. It - it’s like, who am I to be in a role of therapist for someone else? I mean, am I mentally healthy - am I physically healthy - am I the model of health? Not always.

Erica: Mmm.

Joshua: What if I’m having a bad day? Or what if I, you know, am walking around feeling like I said something to someone I care about and I’m feeling guilty about it, you know? And now I show up for a therapy session? So uh, for me, in the realm of therapist, getting over the imposter syndrome is learning how to uh compartmentalize a little bit - put it in the burden basket and go, okay, while I’m with this other person for the next 50 minutes or an hour  and a half or whatever, I’m still being insecure and all that - that won’t go anywhere, but for this period of time, that gets put aside, and I’m gonna really try to be here —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: And be of what service this person needs. And, paradoxically, that’s a very good way to get over ourselves, I find. You know —

Erica: Yeah —

Joshua: It’s like, okay, you don’t have to worry about that right now. It’s not about you.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah… I kinda think the idea that a therapist has to be the quote unquote model of health is a myth. ‘Cause I really don’t want to learn from people that are perfect - I wanna learn from imperfect people. And I think that also upholds this idea that like the therapist is the ultimate authority on what is happening. You’re there to hold space and um support in ways that they need. Yeah - I’m curious - what do you - what do you think about that idea?

Joshua: Well, in the big picture, I think um there are conversations about power that we’re grappling with as a - probably as a world at this point —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: But, just to make it a little - a little more local, certainly I can say we’re grappling with it in our society. Because we’re starting to become conscious of power dynamics that were just so implicit in the ways we were trained to relate to each other, that no one even noticed they were there —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: And now we’re realizing that they never weren’t there. And so, I think that there’s layers of problems in here. There’s the medical field - and the medical profession was set up in the 20th century with very clear hierarchy. You know, you go to the doctor, and the doctor’s gonna tell you about you, and you’re gonna defer to their expertise and their education. And some of that model, as uh kind of outdated as it is, I think, still very much, you know, enters implicitly into any therapeutic contract. It’s like - well, there’s an economic thing, right - who’s being paid, right?

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: So when you’re being paid, uh you do have a responsibility to bring what education and skill you have uh to bear. Some might call that expertise, but that’s a very slippery slope, ‘cause the moment you really buy into the belief that you’ve got something figured out - and they don’t- you’re falling into that old trap. So —

Erica: Uh, that’s a really good analogy - I really like that. Yeah.

Joshua: Mmm. So being an expert is really problematic in any field. And yet, we still use the word, and we honor people’s expertise. And - and so, um - all I can say is it’s something I think we are grappling with collectively. Um, and how I grapple with it is be open to learning —

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: Right, when have I been taught that, you know, my gender orientation, or my race, or my culture -whatever has given me an implicit set of beliefs that might somehow put me on a higher rung - or a lower rung - than someone else. And, oof, it’s always really uncomfortable to look at it. But when I’m able to, I’ll catch myself literally mansplaining with a client - and be like, oh, look at yourself - what are you doing?! And then I have to go through this process: okay, first of all, forgive yourself, right. Like, you didn’t choose this; this is just the air you breathed in, like, you know? Then I get to start paying attention - going, does this person really need me to explain, or are they actually way smarter than I’m noticing —?

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: And, more often than not, I’m like, shut your mouth and listen more, and talk less.

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: Um, the trick of course then is in the therapeutic relationship. That does - that doesn’t mean you just melt and you’re like, hey look, we’re just hanging out - we’re two people… It’s like, no, I’m a therapist - I have a role to play here —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Joshua: And that’s really important. So, it’s really - I think it’s an art form in a way - is holding that space, but still being open and in the learning process at the same time.

Erica: Totally, yeah. Um, we are coming to the end of our time today. So, kinda like, in wrapping up, what have you learned in your process that you would want to offer to others?

Joshua: Hmm… Well, I think that, you know, we didn’t really talk much about the music part of music therapy, but I wanna emphasize that. Um, traditional therapy, there’s the therapist and the patient or client, and that’s, regardless of methods you’re using, those are the players. Whereas, in music therapy, there’s this third player - the music. And I believe music has its own sort of intelligence, or its own self-evolving qualities, that, when we can look at the music as a living, breathing phenomenon that we can interact with and learn form, um that benefits all involved. It benefits the therapist because it takes us off of any self-imposed sense of needing to be an expert - we can defer to what the music is - is showing.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Joshua: It takes pressure off of the one to one therapeutic relationship, because the music can sort of absorb some of the excess energy and emotion that otherwise might be too much for our - our limited nervous systems. Um, and - just, again, from my own experience - from the youngest of ages - I’ve learned to trust music. I wouldn’t say music is my religion, but I have that sort of um belief that music has a tendency toward healing and a tendency toward benevolence. And, when I work with uh groups, I try to implicitly model that, and say, look, music’s here for us.

Erica: Mmm —

Joshua: You know, music’s here for me, it’s here for you - right now, it’s here for us - and that’s not gonna end when we’re done with our session. Music is a gift. Sound is a gift. And, as we open to it, it I will continue to be a gift that keeps on giving.

Erica: Mmm. I really like that. Um, where can people find you? Where you at - particularly online [laughs].

Joshua: Yeah, well, online is where we’re spending a lot of our time these days. So, um, yeah, JoshuaPearlMusicTherapy.com is my website. And I am working uh at times with people remotely; I’ve found a way to make Zoom a music therapy-friendly uh medium for my work. And you can always also email me at WholeMusician@gmail.com - w - h - o - l - e musician at gmail dot com. And um, I also have a nonprofit called the Portland Music Therapy Collaborative - and we are going to be offering workshops for music therapists - and musicians - who are interested in um exploring music as therapy.

Erica: Awesome. I will put all the links, and your email and everything, in the episode notes. Thank you so much for taking time to talk today and chat —

Joshua: Mmm —

Erica: I just really appreciate it.

Joshua: Thanks, Erica. Thank you for asking such meaningful questions, and for bringing your own authenticity to do. You know, whatever we do, I just feel like the work you’re doing, by both holding the space, and uh being a human being at the same time, is - we all need to see more of that. So I really appreciate you uh putting me at ease with your own humanness.

Erica: Thank you so much.

Joshua: Yeah.

Erica: If you’d like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam - C as in cat - Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). On our website, you can find transcripts for every podcast episode. Also a reminder to connect with us on social media @SCMusicProject so you don’t miss any new episodes.

Thanks again to Joshua for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]