Ep. 021 | Being a Black Music Therapist Part Two
Today, we chat with guest, Katy Webber, a music therapist, as she shares about the necessity of creating safe spaces.
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The Daily Show with Trevor Noah | YouTube Channel
Northwest African American Museum | Website
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we finish our 2 part series about Being a Black Music Therapist, with music therapist, Katy Webber. A staff music therapist at the Snohomish County Music Project, Katy supports veterans, older adults, and at risk youth through music therapy. After graduating from Cascade High School in Everett, she earned her BA in vocal jazz performance and became an early childhood music teacher. She has performed jazz, Vaudeville, panto, and a variety of other musical genres on stage for over a decade. Katy earned her BA in music therapy from St. Mary of the Woods College in Indiana.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome to the podcast, Katy. I am so excited to have this conversation today and talk with you. Also, before we get started, I just wanna start right off the bat with acknowledging and expressing gratitude for - I know that having these conversations requires you to do some emotional labor, and to have done the learning and the growing and all of that, so I just - in advance, I thank you so much for being willing to share all of that with me and with the listeners. I just appreciate you so much.
Katy: Thank you so much, and that was so sweet of you to say. And I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. And, you know, my story is one of so many, and I hope that, you know, people can just take that with them - just knowing that this is one story and there are so many more, and just explore that - explore that part of life. Because we need to know - we need to know about each other.
Erica: Absolutely.
Katy: So —
Erica: Yeah —
Katy: Yeah.
Erica: So I specifically invited you to be on the podcast today because you um have a mixed race identity - you’re both black and white, and I just wanted to explore that a little bit more, and just ask you questions about like what your experience is - how your racial identity informs how you practice as a music therapist. Is there anything that you want to start off with? ‘Cause I know that you’ve ben thinking about it a little bit in prep for um this conversation today.
Katy: Yeah. And it’s a really tricky conversation - and that’s just all coming from a very personal, deep-rooted thing, because, you know, I - I’ve always known that I was of mixed race, but I grew up thinking that I was half Palestinian. Because I was adopted, and, you see, my birth mother um wrote my adopted parents a note saying, here, this is who I am - this is who her father is - and um here’s some background information - which I was very grateful for. And um, to be honest, you know, look - also looking in a mirror I - I felt - I looked different from other people. And growing up in Everett, I lived in a community and went to school where it was predominantly white - um, really, I did not see - I think the only black person that I saw until - or really interacted with uh wasn’t uh - was uh with my dad’s barber - and then it - it wasn’t until the 8th grade - so about 13 - 12/13 years —?
Erica: Yeah, around there, yeah —
Katy: And so, I just thought I was half Palestinian - and I thought that’s it - I’m - I’m half Palestinian, here we go.
[Erica and Katy laugh]
Katy: And so I - I was interested in everything that I was mixed with. I was kind of - like, I remember being a little bit obsessed a little bit, because, you know, any movies that had anything to do with the middle east - and let’s watch that! [Chuckles] So, you know, we just - talked - there was a lot of talk back and forth about culture. So culture was always very important to me, you know. And, you know, I - I do wanna add in and admit all the discussion of culture, and the learning, and the interest - you know, I don’t really ever recall them ever saying anything bad about people from the middle east, but definitely there were jokes, and there were just little, you know, oft said things that people in my family would say about African Americans. Why don’t, you know - why they - what’s they’re problem - I don’t understand why they’re doing it to themselves. You know, you hear —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: People talk to you about black on black crime in - you know, uh - um, I don’t understand why they’re complaining, there’s no racism, this is - this is America, everybody can, you know - this is - this seems like it’s their choice to be that way. You know, just um - it - it’s just - it’s - you’re looking at a group of people and you’re just making all of these assumptions —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: Based off of what you think that you know —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: You know, maybe what you’ve heard or what you’ve been inundated —
Erica: Sure —
Katy: With. You know, it’s just around you all the time. And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t realize, is that I - I got it from people in my family, but I also got it from television, I mean, there are - where is the - I mean, I watched the Cosby Show, but that was like - kinda felt like an acceptance, you know what I mean - an exception, sorry - it’s like, you know, there’s the black family that’s on the major cable network, right?
Erica: Sure.
Katy: Where then, and - and -i apologize if I’m wrong on that, but it’s just like, you know, compared to what you see of a caucasian family, it’s very different. And so, it means that the exposure is just not there, in - especially in the white community. Um, and so, like, when you don’t get the exposure, how are you to really understand the truth, you know? Um…
Erica: Mmm. That’s so valid, Katy. Like, it’s complicated - like, we’re both - even as you’re talking through it —
Katy: Yeah —
Erica: We’re both wrestling with like, okay, so how do we articulate —
Katy: Yeah —
Erica: These feelings. But the feelings are valid and true, regardless of how quote unquote eloquent or articulate the words are about it. SO you said that you grew up thinking that you were Palestinian - er part Palestinian, when did you discover that you had a black identity?
Katy: Well, one of the cool things about my parents was that um they always said that it was fine if I ever wanted to meet my birth mother. And so that was always something that was just something that always stuck with me as I grew older - it grew more and more of interest. And so, my adopted mother um - my parents who adopted me were divorced at this time, and my - I was living primarily with my adopted mother, and she helped me to find my birth um family through 1-800 people search,. And - and it was really sweet, actually, because she did all the work for me, and when she had found my family, she had bought 3 red roses for me - one to each represent the number of brothers that I had.
Erica: Awww, that’s weet!
Katy: [Chuckles] Yeah - yeah, since I was the very first one and then my birth mom had gone on to have 3 more boys.
Erica: Oh, okay.
Katy: Yeah. And so that was sweet, and that was a nice way to, you know, find out about that. And so um I - I meet them, and I’m very excited because the oldest boy, Solomon, is to be my full blooded brother —
Erica: Oh —!
Katy: Because his father was to be the same father. And so, I met him - and I was very excited - and it was great to meet him - but at the same time, I went… I don’t look like this guy [laughs]. But I just - you know, when you told you’re one thing, and you have no other explanation for it, you still think, okay, well, I’m not - I’m still Palestinian - half Pal - you know, whatever.
Erica: Sure.
Katy: Um, I still that. And - and um, so, you know, I - I’m just -we’re going along, and - and - and um I’m getting to know everybody better, and that’s very cool. And so we’re hanging out on and off, and a year goes by, and my mom - my birth mom’s dropping me off at my home in Everett - she lives in Kingston at the time - and she said to me, you know, I gotta tell you something - and I feel like you really deserve to know this. And I’m like, uh, what’s up? And uh she let me know that her - my real birth father was black, and that his - you know, who his real name was - and she wanted me to know that um now that I was 18 - because at the time, when I had met her um and my brothers I was 17 - and now that I was 18 years old, she felt that, you know, now I was legally an adult, so she felt free to say that bec - out of respect for the people who had raised me - she didn’t feel like it - you know, until I was legally an adult that I - that she should tell me. Because, apparently, she had told my mom and dad —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: She had told the people who raised me, that day when I had met my birth family. Every - we all had come - we all came together. - it was - that was nice. Anyways, but she had pulled them off to the side, and she had told them, and - and um, so I had talked to my mom. Mom, hey, mom who raised me… I know now.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: You know, I was told - you know, and uh - which makes sense to me, because I feel like I’m more -have African American features compared to Palestinian features. So…
Erica: True.
Katy: Yeah. And she goes, oh, well, uh we didn’t think think that you’d be able to handle it - was one of the reasons that they gave - which, you know, I - if anybody understands the human mind, that’s probably clearly stating we couldn’t handle it. And then she says to me, oh, what is Grandma gonna think? And I thought, what in the world are you talking about?
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: What do you mean, what is grandma gonna think? I am the baby girl in the family - I was the adopted one who like was super special - and, you know, my - my adoptive parents couldn’t have a baby, so I was - you know, it was like, yay! Baby! And you’re - you know, you’re the special one - and I was the - the youngest out of all the grandkids, and Grandma loved me. Oh! What is grandma gonna think? And so we told Grandma - and, by this time, my grandfather had passed away, and the first words out of my grandmother’s mouth was, oh, what would grandpa think if he were alive? I want a DNA test.
Erica: What?!
Katy: [Laughing] And I’m laughing, and I apologize - I want people to understand that that is my way of coping with things that may be hard in life. [Laughs]
Erica: Sure.
Katy: And that’s how I keep going, is through laughter.
Erica: You are allowed to cope however you need to cope.
Katy: [Laughs] So, here we go!
Erica: Yeah, yeah.
Katy: What would Grandpa think if he were alive? And um,i looked at her and I said, Grandma, I’m still the same person.
Erica: So —
Katy: So that happens. [Laughs]
Erica: Mmm. So at this point, —
Katy: Here we go —!
Erica: You find out that you’re mixed, and that includes - not mixed - you find out that your mix includes black, and not Palestinian.
Katy: Yup.
Erica: And you’re immediately confronted with some generational racism. And that has to be a thing that you - I’m gonna guess, and tell me if I’m wrong - that you’re still kind of working through that, even though that was years and years ago that - that that initially occurred. My question - or my curiosity now lends to like, okay, so this is your story, and unfortunately, on the podcast itself, I don’t - we don’t have the time to go through —
Katy: I know, I’m sorry —
Erica: Your whole journey. That’s okay! Um, but how does that then impact your expiernece as a clinician - as a music therapist, um when you’re in different therapeutic relationships?
Katy: Well it really - it showed me how serious the racism —
Erica: Mmm –
Katy: Is in this country. Because I learned about being mixed with a different race - a race that I heard jokes about growing up - I mean, imagine if you’re told that… And - and you’re not gonna be thinking so great about yourself. The same thing happens to some peoples um within the black community - I didn’t even know this until I was older - um, for example, dark skin color. I had made a comment to a girl, I - I just was like, oh my gosh - I mean, I was ignorant at the time - I didn’t know how to talk to people - and I said, oh my gosh, your skin color is so beautiful. And she’s like [gasps] you know, she was really - it - it didn’t go well with her because she was told by her mom while she grew up that her - that her skin color was too dark.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: By her mother who birthed her. And then, as I learned this, and then I started to talk to more people about it and listen more, apparently that’s not just a isolated incident - it’s something that hap - you know, goes on. So knowing that that is something - again, you know, my story is unique, and it is not the same - however, that does inform me to how one may feel when they’re rejected by their parent for something that they don’t have any control over.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: And how that can carry into adulthood - and how that can effect how you see yourself, how you may think other’s see you, you know?
Erica: Yeah. I wonder, in relation to the veteran programs that you facilitate for the Music Project - I know that the experience of veterans from the Vietnam War - there’s a lot of possibility that there are deep wounds from that, and the historical/social/political context for veterans in that specific situation. And, do you maybe empathize on a different level if you’re working with - in this particular instance, a veteran - that is expressing that level of woundedness —
Katy: Mmhmm.
Erica: What do - what do you think?
Katy: Well, you know, there’s a very strong possibility that a large percentage, or at least some of my anxiety - I have - I have pretty strong general anxiety —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: And if people don’t really know what that is, that just means you’re pretty much anxious all the time. And um, depending on, you know, what’s going on in the day, um, it can be either better or it can be worse. There’s a lot of anxiety that’s definitely tied to my low self esteem, so, absolutely, I could see how that can connect in with the way that I perceived myself, you know, in not thinking as great - as highly of myself as I should have, because of all the things that leaked into my brain, you know, throughout growing up, you know, childhood —
Erica: Sure —
Katy: Um, within society and um within family life. So, I - yeah, absolutely. I get anxiety. And, you know, um, PTSD can cause anxiety, and I believe vice versa. So, I get what it’s like to like just be on that edge, right, because, yeah, there are some people that I work with who have to make sure that they’re always looking at the door.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: There’s some music therapists that I talk to within the Black Music Therapy Network - which, by the way, um just a little side note, you know, people of color, if you need support within your work environment or your school community, I really recommend getting in touch with, you know, networks that might be culturally based, such as um the Black Music Therapy Network, you know, in my case, or if there is another group that um the individual can reach out to so they have a safe space to go to - because that’s what it’s about, a safe space. The veteran looking at the front door - making sure that they can look at the front door is making sure that uh their space is safe. The African American person going into a predominately white work environment doesn’t always feel as safe - because there aren’t people around who understand.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: You know what I mean? That happened - you know, that’s happened to colleagues of mine - little micro aggressions. One of my colleagues, a black music therapist uh interning in Chicago goes to the hospital for her internship and is mistaken as one of the janitorial staff.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: Not - you know, not thought of as somebody who could be a music therapist.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: Right? I mean, it’s where the brain goes to when that’s what you see all the time.
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: That’s not a good excuse - I’m just saying that that’s happening —
Erica: It’s kind of the reality of the situation —
Katy: Right. You know, it’s where -where these micro aggressions can come from.
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: And so she wasn’t feeling safe. She didn’t feel like she could express her feelings in that environment because she is pulling herself up by any thread of her bootstraps that she can —
Erica: [chuckles] Yeah —
Katy: While her - her white counterpart - cohort at the same internship gets an apartment paid for, and she’s married —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: So she has a partner to help support her - as well as her mom’s paying for her apartment.
Erica: Mmm.
Katy: So, where my friend was pulling herself up by threads - has to pull herself up by threads because she doesn’t have any other resources. And so because she’s going through that and her counterparts are not, she doesn’t feel safe to be in that environment.
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: And that’s just one story of many many. Again, like I say, there are so many stories and so many different ways that people could not feel safe. But, you know, because I know like what it can feel like when you’re in certain situations - um, you know, as a - as a black person, I’m like - for me, I’ve gone into situations where I wasn’t sure if I would be discovered as being black —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: Um, because if you see me, I’m very light skinned. Most white people can’t tell - they just come over and they touch your hair.
[Erica makes a sound]
Katy: People will —
Erica: I can’t with those people. I can’t.
[Katy laughs]
Erica: Do not touch other people unless you get consent. Period.
Katy: [Laughing] Where did you get that hair from? I had one woman I was working with when I was in my internship - and it was in a rural area - she was a caucasian woman - I really liked her - she’s great. Where did you get your curly hair from? My birth father’s um black? And she goes Ohhhhh! Like literally like that. But it was just because it made her realize, oh! [Laughs] So what I’m saying is like - is - I pass [laughs] I mean —
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: In situations. However, if i’m in a - in a community where they’re really used to seeing a lot of African American people, like - I ran into somebody who was from Oklahoma, and she - and he said to me, oh, I thought I saw a little bit of grit in you. You know, so it’s just —
Erica: Mmm —
Katy: And [makes a sound of confusion] what?
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: You know, hmm, I’ve never heard that one before. I was like, okay —
Erica: I haven’t either, that’s new to me.
Katy: Yeah, that was a weird one. And so, uh, it - it feels creepy too a little bit. [Laughs]
Erica: Yeah. No - yeah.
Katy: I don’t know. I - anyway, so um, yeah. Yeah - little bit. I think so - if you can see, you know, how that can weave in there, you know - absolutely.
Erica: Yeah —
Katy: Yeah —
Erica: It’s important - uh, whoever you are, and whatever s - and whatever communities you’re a part of, creating safe spaces should be like the highest priority on your to do list. If you’re not creating safe spaces - whether for the black community, indigenous communities, queer communities - any disab - disability communities - any community that has any level of marginalization, especially if you’re a helping profession - teachers, nurses, therapists, social workers, etc, etc, etc - you’re not going to be effective in your work - because you can’t expect, in this particular case clients, to be vulnerable with you, as a clinician, if they’re not safe. That is - that’s - I think - my understanding - that’s like the basic level of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs - like, you need shelter, food, safety. And then we can work on other needs.
Katy: Absolutely. I mean, yeah. That’s a - that’s a really good, you know, whole other podcast —
[Erica chuckles]
Katy: Of like where that feeling first comes from. Because I think that if we were to understood that that’s one of the infant’s first instincts is to - is safety - like, that, you know, where am I gonna get my - my safe?
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: [Laughing] My safe.
Erica: They’re looking for safety. Like, everybody’s look - everybody’s looking for a place to belong —
Katy: Mmhmm —
Erica: And they’re looking for a place to seen, known, heard, and ultimately it makes them feel safe.
Katy: Yeah, it’s a instinct of survival.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Katy: It’s a - we all have it - we’re an animal.
Erica: Yeah. Well, we are coming to the end of our time for today. If people want to look into more of the lived black experience, or into creating safe spaces, etc, etc, do you have any resources that people can investigate further?
Katy: Somebody who I really like to listen to on a daily basis, because I feel like he’s really thoughtful and eloquent - and, I’m talking about Trevor Noah of the Daily Show. Um, if anybody doesn’t know, he’s of mixed race, and he was literally born out of crime during Apartheid South Africa. And so, he’s bee naming in the way that he explains systematic racism to people, and policing, and he great - does wonderful interviews of black artists, and - but also he makes sure to interview people that um might not always agree with him as much - and so, in that way, I feel like he’s not only informative, but a really good example of how I hope uh some day we can be with each other. I know that that’s really hard, and that’s - there’s a lot of layers to that.
You know, as for creating safe space: and readings such as that - I mean, any thing that helps you to better understand the culture of - somebody’s culture that is not your own - do it.
Erica: Yes.
Katy: Try not to do it blindly —
Erica: What do you mean by that?
Katy: Make sure that you get your resources from reputable places —
Erica: Oh, sure —
Katy: You know, if you’re reading papers, you know, make sure that, you know, that they’re from credible universities - that you’re - you know, that - that there’s - you know, that - that there’s some scientific basis. Even - you know, that helps.
Erica: Yeah.
Katy: You don’t wanna just - go off just reading any old thing that you may come across on the video feed. That’s my point.
Erica: Sure.
Katy: Because that can be dangerous —
Erica: Sure —
Katy: That’s really dangerous. I mean, yeah - thank you, yeah - don’t do it blindly. And travel.
Erica: Travel. Yeah, if you have —
Katy: Yeah.
Erica: If you - if you can, like we encourage you to -to just learn more about others. Center voices and stories that are not your own.
Katy: Yeah.
Erica: I will link all the resources that Katy will send me in our episode notes, on our website. If you wanna learn more, see those resources, we have transcripts available of every podcast episode - they are on our website at S as in Sam, C as in Cat, Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on all social media @SCMusicProject. If you are enjoying the podcast - if you listen regularly, let’s keep having conversations about important things. Um, we will continue to bring you uh new topics that are related to. Music therapy - there’s much involved in the field of music therapy, it’s not just one dimensional, it’s about 20 different dimensions. Encourage you to come back.
Thank you again, Katy, for chatting and sharing, and um, I just appreciate you - so so much.
Katy: Thank you! I appreciate you too.
Erica: Thank you. Alright, thank you, listeners, for listening, and we’ll talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays]