Ep. 022 | Music Therapy in the Justice System
Today, we chat with guest, Cassie Fox, a board-certified music therapist, about how they practice anti-oppressive therapy in a juvenile detention center.
LEARN MORE
13th directed by Ava DuVernay | Documentary
Ava DuVernay’s 13th Reframes American History by J. Lantigua-Williiams | Article
Youth Incarceration by ACLU | Webpage
Implicit Bias: More Than Just a Few Bad Apples by Dr. Cameron Wedding | Articles
Community Based Alternatives by Juvenile Justice Information Exchange | Webpage
Unlocking the Future: Detention Reform in the Juvenile Justice System by Coalition for Juvenile Justice | Report
The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Blindness by Michelle Alexander | Book
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about music therapy in the justice system, with board certified music therapist, Cassie Fox. Cassie is a board certified music therapist, who supports youth and adults, using music for expression and emotional release, including individuals navigating transitional periods and affected by complex trauma. With over 3 years of clinical experience, Cassie has been working with youth in various community settings for over 13 years. Their work is centered on a community-oriented, anti oppressive lens and a client-centered approach.
Before we get started, here’s a quick note from Cassie.
Cassie: Thanks, Erica. There were a few things that I wanted to say before the podcast. It is important to acknowledge that I am a person who has never experienced incarceration, and I am a white adult who was raised in a middle class home, with access to certain power and privilege that differs from many of the marginalized youth I serve. I work to listen to the voices of the people I work with, and to be reflexive in learning how to best support them. It is also important to acknowledge that we cannot help but be political in our action and inaction. By working toward social justice and anti oppressive practice, we seek to reduce the impacts of oppressive systems; otherwise, we risk harm to the people we serve, our communities, and ourselves by being complicit in these systems. This is an ongoing process of learning and unlearning, and I will continue to strive to do better.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome back! Thank you for being on the podcast again!
Cassie: Yeah, glad to be back.
Erica: So today we’re gonna talk about the work that you do within a juvenile detention center. This is a really unique setting and space for music therapy - I personally don’t know of a ton of therapists in Washington State that work within the prison system.
Cassie: I personally don’t know any others - actually, that would be cool to probably look into. But I’m not currently aware of any - I know um there are quite a few music therapists working in the justice system in like California.
Erica: Yeah, in other states —
Cassie: Yeah —
Erica: Yeah, it’s not unusual nationwide.
Cassie: Totally.
Erica: But I think it’s a little bit unusual within our state particularly. So, I just wanna give some context. Could you please tell us a little bit more about the specific setting that you’re in? Who are you working with? What is it like - etc?
Cassie: SO yeah, it’s in a juvenile detention center. Um, so that’s with ages 13-17 years. I have been there - so I interned at this site in summer and fall of 2017, and then I started working. At the site - March - I think, February/March uh 2019 - um, and have been there - recently I haven’t since the current pandemic. When I’m there in person, I’ve been going twice a week, and at this time, what that has looked like is within the school setting and within like the visitation center.
Erica: And I think you do a combination of individual and group sessions —
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Yeah. So, because this is a super unique setting, and there’s a lot of inherent trauma around the justice system in general for a lot of marginalized folks in the US —
Cassie: Yeah, absolutely —
Erica: Um, how do you practice trauma-informed care within the detention center?
Cassie: Yeah. So I really appreciated - appreciate all that you just said, because that’s where we start first, right, with ourselves. And that, I guess, internal foundation we build before we are even entering a space with anyone else. So we do have to be aware of those kinda layers of complex traumas that come from whatever the individuals have brought into the space, but even just like the kind of like continuing trauma of that space that they’re currently in. Like, ensuring that there is consent in what is happening is how we are kind of building that sense of safety and trust, and because youth like are kind of like - a lot of their rights are restricted, right when they’re in this sort of environment. So, wherein a lot of other work I have - like we might have with individuals or other spaces, you have youth or their parents that are signing off for consent, in a space like this, that’s not happening.
So, how - how we inform people, or how we give option and opportunity for people to acknowledge their consent can look kind of different. So, whereas like the therapy itself might look kind of different - like the music therapy and the way I orient myself might look pretty different - um, and I think you could kind of reference like back to the community music therapy podcast - I talk a lot about that - and kind of like I know in some of like Vee’s podcasts, and some of the other podcasts we have too, there’s a lot of conversations around like we are kind of queering spaces and kind of de-centering ourselves as the experts in the space. So I’m bringing that up because all of that is really important to this. And it’s important - like consent is all about someone else’s voice and choice, right. So, I present these opportunities, I present here am I, here is music therapy. And then the youth in the space have the choice whether to engage or not.
Erica: Mmm.
Cassie: Um, this can be kind of tricky in a space like that, because I also have to be aware of some systems in place that like the youth are navigating - maybe I’m still trying to navigate - as far as like conversations in helping people to understand what is therapy, and what it means to be in music therapy, and how this is different than some of the other sorts of policies they have in place for different settings. Because, if we’re talking about consent, and if we’re talking about trauma-informed care that’s built on safety and trust, the youth have to know that what they are saying - what they are doing in that space is not going to be held against them —
Erica: Mmm —
Cassie: That they’re not going to be losing points, or it’s not going to affect a grade, or affect access to other opportunities - because I’ve - I’ve said hey, let’s talk about this, and then they talk about it, but it didn’t come out in a way that someone else thought was okay. Because, in therapy - in my orientation and approach to therapy - what you have to say and how you express it, that is okay. Like, that is just implied - that is okay, unless there is some harm happening to someone else, and then we’re gonna work on navigating and figuring that out together - um, because that part is not okay - like, we need everyone here to feel safe and okay.
Erica: Sure. And so, how does the safety and trust part that you were talking about - how does that work with other professionals that may be in the room or nearby - because of the type of facility that it is?
Cassie: That speaks a lot to kind of this relationship building that happens - or needs to happen - that’s not just about what’s happening between, you know, me as the music therapist and the youth involved, but that has to be extended to everyone else in these spaces also. Because, otherwise, we don’t have any sort of like foundation between one another as like staff or like working adults in this space. So, before you can communicate to one another, and have understandings between one another, you have to be building that relationship. And that’s an ongoing process, right - and like, all relationships - there’s that ongoing learning that’s going to happen. And how we work together and understanding different perspectives.
As a music therapist, I come in and I have a very different perspective than the school teacher, who’s making sure that their working towards some sort of like educational achievement, right, and getting —
Erica: Sure —
Cassie: And getting - working towards whatever they need to to work through that school system process. And then, with the officers in the space, they’re coming from kind of a punitive mindset, right - and that is, I mean, kind of opposite of what my mindset is really. So, there have to be ways that we can have conversations and facilitate understanding between each other, so that there can be space for everyone to do the work that they are there to do.
Erica: I wanna go back to the punitive mindset that the officers have. Um, because one of our core values - and it’s even included in our mission statement - is being anti-oppressive. And so I’m curious about how you bring an anti-oppressive paradigm - therapeutic paradigm - into a place that is very oppressive.
Cassie: Oh, absolutely —
Erica: Um, yeah, can you speak to that?
Cassie: Yeah —
Erica: What is that experience like?
Cassie: Yeah, I mean, it’s an ongoing process, and I’m still trying to learn how to do that too. Um, I’m still new to that space, and I come in as someone who’s not - I’m not employed by the detention center - I’m employed by the music project, and then I get to provide music therapy services because we have a grant to be in that space. I guess what I’m saying is, I feel like I face some challenges in that - in just like - I mean, sometimes um I’m perceived to be a volunteer, and sometimes I’ve had conversations with people about the fact that I am a music therapist because they’ll um reference me as a music teacher —
Erica: Mmm —
Cassie: And, it’s not that I - I mean, there’s a difference, and sometimes I am literally teaching music, so if - if they see me teaching music to someone, it’s not like they’ve mis-labeled me - it’s not like that’s not what they’re seeing happening, and that we can’t carry more than one like label in what we do. But understanding like that I am there as a music therapist um can kind of help facilitate those kind of conversation around this is something very diff - like the intention I guess behind what I’m doing —
Erica: Mmm —
Cassie: Which is very different. Yeah, it’s pretty complicated. I mean, I - we’re gonna talk again about censorship, but that’s been kind of an ongoing conversation for me, because I have some very different opinions about like how music can be used to express ourselves, or even like help to develop trust and safety in a space - and connections to like culture and all of those sorts of things. But those that are in this mindset - when there’s that punitive focus, like - I mean, my understanding - this is different than my mindset, so I just want to acknowledge that I’m speaking to something that’s very different than my frame of mind.
Erica: Sure.
Cassie: Um, so, obviously somebody that’s coming in from that mindset could speak to it like in a more accurate way is what I’m saying. But, this or that. Whereas, for me, it all might just be a little bit more - it - it’s not so clear that it’s this or that. Like, there’s this individual and I’m trying to - like we’re working together to define and understand things, and that can just be kind of complicated.
Erica: Is that - are you referencing - it sounds to me like you’re referencing the concept of queering and how you use that in this space —
Cassie: Mmm —
Erica: Because there’s a lot of gray area —
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: And so, for listeners’ sake, if you don’t know what the concept of queering is, we did a whole episode on it —
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: In June and I really encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. A real quick definition is just like, queering is working to destabilize power hierarchies essentially.
Cassie: Yeah, and I think also, you know, with - within that podcast, Vee spoke - you know, used the word radical a lot, um and like radical destabilization - and like these kinds of concepts. And I think, like, right now in our world, we’re hearing that a lot right now, right. People are talking about radical destabilization - that there are these systemic issues that we need to change, and yeah, I - I mean, that’s a lot of what it’s about. So when you come into a space and it’s - it’s not so clear what you’re doing, and the why of it may not be so clear either - and, there’s probably a lot of um misunderstanding of what my background and education is too - so I - I mean, I think people - all of us can understand that there are a lot of people that are well-meaning or have decent intentions, but it doesn’t always mean that they are carrying, I don’t know, like the necessary understanding or reflexivity in the work that they’re doing?
Erica: Sure.
Cassie: Yeah. There’s still like a lot of - I feel like there’s still - those are conversations I’m still working to have so that there can be more understanding.
Erica: Yeah. It comes back to like intent versus impact also. And - I know a lot of people in education for example, um because my family is just a family full of teachers —
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: And I know a lot of good teachers. And I know a lot of good-intentioned teachers —
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: That caused harmed to their students.
Cassie: Yeah.
Erica: And, so intent versus impact is so important. I have another question about the anti-oppressive nature of the work. Over the last couple of months, the Black Lives Matter movement has been gaining momentum —
Cassie: Yeah —
Erica: And we are aware of the school to prison pipeline.
Cassie: Mmhmm.
Erica: And we’re also aware of the disproportionately high number of black people, particularly, that are in the prison system, comparative to other racial identities. And so, in practicing anti-oppressive therapy, how are you working on your own implicit biases um in doing that uh really like anti-racist work specifically?
Cassie: Yeah. No, I really appreciate you saying that, because when we’re talking about well-intended people, something else that can come up to is well-intending white people. Um, and I am a white person - and that is something that I have to be aware of. I’ve - I’m also a person who’s never been incarcerated, so these are all things I carry in who I am. Some of these, you know, the youth - or whoever I’m engaging with - it’s gonna be really obvious to them too - some may not be as obvious. But regardless, I have to - I have to do the work on myself, or with myself, to kind of unpack what that means.
And, like what you’re saying with implicit bias, we have to be aware of the systems that we’ve been raised in - and for me that was like the late ‘80s to early 2000s,. And, I mean, I - I’m still unpacking - I’m still learning to do better, and be aware of the culture - the society that I was raised in —
Erica: Mmm —
Cassie: And that I learned - I mean, I’m needing to unlearn —
Erica: Sure —
Cassie: A lot of that, and how - what sort of media influences were around me - the ways that, you know, the predominantly white people I grew up around - the ways that people spoke about things or engaged with things in the world that I am maybe still not aware of - how it has impacted me. I mean, that’s what we - that’s what part of like working to become anti-racist, and working to become um anti-oppressive - ‘cause these are actions, right —
Erica: Yes.
Cassie: These are not about - like just something that embody and you won - you got it. That’s not how that works.
Erica: [Chuckles] No. Absolutely not.
Cassie: Um, and if you think it does, then you really need to check in with yourself about that too. So - so this is an ongoing process. And what it means also is that we have to realize the social and racial issues that are impacted by a lot of historical issues. We have to recognize the systemic issues at play - that white supremacy and racism are imbedded in all of our justice systems and all of our political systems - imbedded throughout how our society functions. And os, what this means to what we’re talking about right now is that a lot of black and brown people in our - our nation, I’ll just speak to that right now —
Erica: Sure —
Cassie: Are treated differently - are viewed differently. I’m just gonna - I know we’re gonna talk about resources later, and I’m happy to mention it again - but I’ve been watching the documentary 13th. And um, I would —
Erica: Yes - I’ve - I would —
Cassie: Highly encourage anyone to watch that. I mean, I am learning —
Erica: Yes —
Cassie: There’s stuff I’ve been thinking about for a long time, and I’m learning from that. Yeah.
Erica: Yes.
Cassie: Yeah.
Erica: I also highly recommend - I have recommended it to every single person that I talk to about race —
Cassie: Yeah —
Erica: Yes —
Cassie: It’s really - it is —
Erica: It’s a really important piece of work.
Cassie: That’s exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah.
Erica: Yeah.
Cassie: It is - it is important. Yeah, I - I just encourage people to watch that and to know - and to learn. And if you are skeptical about any of this, then I encourage you to try to come to the table and - and set that aside for a little bit, and try to understand how these things can work, so that you can begin to unravel the reality of it.
Erica: Yeah.
Cassie: Um, because it - it is absolutely true. And um - I mean, I’ll just acknowledge it is hard for me to understand how anyone could watch that and not understand that this is - this is absolutely true. I mean, I - I can watch that, and I can see how it has sculpted so much of the world around me that I grew up in. Um, yeah.
Erica: Mmm.
Cassie: I did just wanna like touch on the fact that, you know, we’ve kinda talked about some of the like - the concerns with implicit bias and stuff, and how that affects um race, but I think like, you know, it’s worth also considering how this can affect youth in these spaces who might have different gender - gender identities or sexual orientations. Because these spaces are built around gender binaries, so that becomes - that becomes a difficult issue… like, let’s say you’re a non - a nonbinary youth in this space - what cell are they going to put you in? So, there can be kind of some - some trauma or stress you experience in that, because you’ve been working on asserting this identity that you have, and you’re now being told you have to be in this one space because that’s all that’s available. So, for transgender youth in these spaces, there’s still a lot of work to be done for transgender support, right. So, there are some kind of complicated issues because people will - once again, they’re bringing in their own biases and beliefs about how humans work, and what humans are, and so, if they don’t even recognize you for the gender that you are - and that you are telling people that you are - and you’re being told like, you don’t have the right maybe to assert this here, that’s traumatizing. That is absolutely traumatizing. Um, and I think that’s just important to consider.
And also, like, just the very nature of being an adolescent is about a lot of like lack of control over yourself - over spaces you’re in - over what you are and are not allowed to do and say. And, you know, adolescents are - they’re aware of things in the world, and they are totally in the process of developing their identities, and developing their like ability to assert who they are in the world, and understand how other people are going to respond to that and relate to that. So it’s very complicated is what I’m saying.
Erica: Absolutely.
Cassie: Um, we can’t make these assumptions just because of, once again, things that our society says - with this generation - or with these teens - or these teens that live here - or these teens who , you know, look like this. We have to like realize that all of that is a problem, and we’re talking about individuals, and we have to be willing to listen to their voices. Yeah, and take that in and support.
Erica: In the context of doing anti-oppressive therapy, and just being a music therapist, I think that it’s important - our therapy team cares far more about the process than they do about the product of whatever it is they’re doing in a session.
Cassie: Absolutely.
Erica: So what does that holding. The process versus the product like in the context of the detention center?
Cassie: Being process-oriented and using music therapy to create this space held between us - or between them, you know, everyone that’s in the space - allows opportunities for things to happen. So I do a lot of work with Emmy Fansler um from Arts with a Purpose - we do a lot of kind of co-facilitating, and Emmy leads a maybe quarterly - there’s a talent show that happens. And so, youth are literally kind of working towards a product to perform during the talent show. And any time I am working with a youth or group of youth that is working on something towards the talent show, I always make it clear that that is super valuable and I am here to support that if they want it - but also, make it very clear that the things that we are working on don’t have to be for the talent show. They can choose. Like, they can always choose. They can change their minds - like, to me that’s part of that process to - that we understand that we’re not like stagnant, and we - we are ever changing. So, even when we are in the process of something that’s moving towards a product, to me, that’s - that’s still not the focus of the work, and um not the priority. That choice, that safety, that trust - those are the priorities. The relationships - those are the priorities.
Okay, so here’s the story [chuckles] 4 teens were working on the song Fur Elise um by Beethoven. And they - they were pretty excited, I mean, in learning this, like it was kind of a fun - a fun experience just working though through that song. And each of them was at a very different place in the first part of that piece - that’s the part we were focused on - and they were all in very different places, as far as like the progress or like yeah, where they were at with the piece - and comfort level. SO, we were working on this, and there were conversations on like how do - how do we do this for the talent show - ‘cause all of them had made it clear that they were interested in playing this piece for the talent show. Anyone [chuckles] in - in any field of any age who’s been involved in any sort of like performance - arts performance or even like public speaking and things like that - like, I think most of us know what that anxiety can feel like that’s coming up. So they were all - not only were they battling their own like personal confidence or feelings about where they were at with the music, but there’s also now this anxiety of like, yeah I wanna play for this, but also… I’m gonna play for this - like, in front of people? Aaahh!
Well, the teens worked together, and what they came up with was really beautiful. They created a skit, where they took turns coming up to the keyboard, and each person played as much of the piece as they felt comfortable with. And then, no matter how good it sounded, each of them finished like throwing their hands down on the keyboard or like shoulders slumped and waking away from it. Like, giving this like physical visualization and audio for the audience of I can’t do this - I give up - and walking away from the keyboard. And so, they took turns doing this until, after the fourth teen finished, they all then like look at each other, came back to the keyboard - each one with a hand on the keyboard, so we have 4 hands - they hit play [chuckles] ‘cause there’s a Fur Elise demo track on the keyboards we use. And one of the teens taped together 2 pens for me for my baton, so I could stand there and like act like I was conducting it - and so we had a single keyboard 4-hand orchestra, I guess you could say - quartet.
So, was it silly? Absolutely! Were they smiling and having fun? Yes! They were developing relationships. They were doing it - like, they were doing that together. And it was just really powerful and beautiful. It was very cool.
Erica: That’s super cool. I love those kinds of stories.
Cassie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Yeah. SO we are coming to the end of our time. So, just really briefly, do you have any resources that listeners can investigate further into either this type of work, or anti-racist work, or - ‘cause we’ve covered a large number of topics within this conversation.
Cassie: I first just want to, again, mention the documentary 13th. We talked about a lot of different things, and there are resources out there for all of the different things that we talked about that are important. So if there was a word you heard today and you want to learn more - or a concept - like, please go check it out. Feel free to contact us - feel free to contact me - I’m always happy to like be in this learning process with people. But yeah, the documentary 13th, that would be the thing I would like prioritize for everyone um to check out. And there is a um a great article I’m gonna give to you, Erica, that I found on the Juvenile Justice Information Exchange that I think’s really valuable to read - just about - as we’re talking about kind of unpacking these systemic concerns that we all need to be having, and like considering in our justice system. And the ACLU has a section on their website that has a lot of good information too that I’ll make sure that you have. And besides that, I would just say - like, listen to the youth. Listen to black and brown voices -like, listen to what people are saying. Seek those voices out. DOn’t put someone on the spot to just like educate you - there - there are resources out there you can find. But we’ve gotta learn from people.
Erica: Yeah. So I will put the resources in the episode notes and on our website. You can find out more about the Snohomish County Music Project at S as in Sam - C as in Cat Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). Please follow us on social media to get the latest on programs, general updates, etc. We’re on social media everywhere, @SCMusicProject.
We are also looking for board members. Um, we are looking for people that represent the various communities that we work with, and we would love to talk to you more about what board membership looks like.
If you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe so that you get notifications about new episodes coming out. Leave us a review - this helps other people to know about us. Share it with your friends -with your family. Thank you, Cassie, again, so much for chatting with me today. It’s been a very good conversation, and I think an important conversation. And I’m really pleased and really appreciative that you’re on our team, that we’re friends, that you’re just - just all around awesome. So… Just, thank you.
Cassie: [Chuckles] Thank you, Erica.
Erica: Um, thank you, listeners, for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.
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