Ep. 023 | Censorship in Music Therapy

Today, we chat again with guest, Cassie Fox, a board-certified music therapist, who answers the question, “What is the best music to listen to?”

LEARN MORE

The Gospel of Hip Hop by KRS-One | Book

First Overstanding from The Gospel of Hip Hop by KRS-One | YouTube

The Hip Hop Wars by Tricia Rose | Book

Black Noise by Tricia Rose | Book

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about censorship in music therapy, with board certified music therapist, Cassie Fox. Cassie is a board-certified music therapist, who supports youth and adults, using music for expression and emotional release, including individuals navigating transitional periods and affected by complex trauma. With over 3 years of clinical experience, Cassie has been working with youth in various community settings for over 13 years. Their work is centered on a community-oriented, anti-oppressive lens and a client-centered approach.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome back to the podcast, Cassie

Cassie: Good to be back, Erica

Erica: So, often times, when our therapy team does community presentations about the work we do, a frequently asked question is what is the best music to listen to - in major air quotes. Um, I personally have heard things from like classical music to like, somebody suggested that ‘80s music is the best music to listen to —

Cassie: Interesting —

Erica: SO, how do you respond to that question, as a music therapist?

Cassie: Yeah. I - so, there are usually kind of like 2 points I like to make. One is that -first of all, like it depends on who you’re with. And, if we’re talking about um, you know, working as a music therapist and working with a client, it’s gonna be totally dependent upon what music they like and they enjoy listening to. The best music for you, Erica, is going to be the music that Erica likes, you know. And then, as far as just like a general - if we’re talking about quality, my answer is there is no best music. We’re not gonna qualify music like that. This is how I generally feel about art [chuckles] like, that that’s - that’s not really - yeah useful when we’re talking about these sorts of contexts. Like, we all have personal preferences, and that’s valuable to us, but…

Erica: Yeah. So, in going with client-preferred music —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: How does that support trauma-informed care?

Cassie: Yeah. I - I think like, what is really important to me about that is that it’s giving our clients a way to express themself. I mean, that’s - that’s what we’re using music for all the time, right - we’re using music for the clients to express themselves - to communicate with one another - to express ourselves with the client - that’s what the music is for. Music’s all about expression. That’s why someone is in therapy probably, right - to be able to express themselves, to be able to express whatever direction they’re wanting to go in, or maybe they’re wanting to express like things they’ve been through - like all of that is about self-expression. Music therapy - music - is an art form, and so that is totally about expression also.

Um, so if we’re talking about that sort of like trauma-informed lens, then we’re talking about like how do we make space to support that self expression. How do we make space for the client to be able to like represent their voice. And when we’re talking about like our voice, it’s not just when I’m talking to you, right. Like, if I’m talking about like art that I connect to - and that I use art to communicate or express myself, that’s my voice too. Um, it’s very personal - and the implications of something being personal has everything to do with the care that we have to take when we are supporting a person. And that’s where kind of that trauma-informed lens comes in. Because, all that that means - me having a trauma-informed approach means that I am doing everything I can to treat you with care - to provide like safety in the space for you - and I’m informed by the fact that I do not know everything that you’ve been through, I do not know everything that you feel or think about, and I’m keeping that awareness in mind as I am working to support you in these ways.

Erica: What has your experience been with music that is more divisive? There’s some types of music that people deem as bad —

Cassie: Uh huh —

Erica: In quotes - for a number of reasons. Can you tell me more about those specific experiences?

Cassie: I think that, probably one of the most important things that we can address right now, especially if we are thinking about like the climate of our nation at this moment, is we are all having conversations - and you and I as like white people in this space, like it’s really important we are having conversations about race right now. And that we are all like working to unravel these like biases - I mean, we -we spoke before in the last podcast about implicit bias, and just about like all of the ways that our like world view has been shaped by, I mean, basically who has told the stories. So, if you have a lot of white people that are writing the history books, then there are things being left out of that story. This nation is not all white people, and never has been - white people weren’t here first. So, if you’re only getting some of the - I mean, here we’re back to this - I’m thinking about voices again - who - who is telling the story? Who is making these decisions? That’s really important.

So, back to the question you asked. We have to think about like how there’s like racially-motivated censorship that occurs. And, I think when we think about like Hip Hop and Rap music - and even if you, you know, keep going back to other genres that were like started and lead by and continued to be created by predominantly black people - there has been a lot of controversy over  those styles of music - jazz, totally. And that’s a problem. And I’ve been in spaces where other people in power in this space - who are the adults in this space, or staff if we’re talking about like a juvenile space like we recently spoke of - we are the ones in power in that space, right. So we have a lot of control in that, and like making the decisions - deciding where the rules and boundaries lie.

So, if somebody says this music’s not allowed, let’s talk about what that is and what that can mean. Like, if that’s your music - that’s part of you - and somebody’s telling you that music’s not allowed here, what does that say about you? Like, you being in that space, and you being able to be your full self in that space.

Erica: I’m genuinely curious about this. Because I have great proximity to music therapy and the work that we’re doing, that I am really seldom ever actually in session.

Cassie: Right.

Erica: So - I know that you’ve come back from sessions, and been frustrated because a non-therapy staff person for a facility or other place has said we can’t listen to this, or you can’t do this, and —

Cassie: Right —

Erica: And then that, as you were saying, limits how much of the - how much of the- authentic self can be present in a session?

Cassie: Exactly.

Erica: Yeah.

Cassie: and as the therapist in the space, that’s one of my largest concerns - is how are people being oppressed in this space? And the therapy space is a space you should not be oppressed in. Like, therapy is anti-opp - [chuckles] like should be anti-oppressive, right. Of all the spaces you can be in, this should be a space where that is not happening, or you’re being protected from that, and - and it takes, you know, additional work to - to find ways we can like communicate and understand one another, but the fact is that if, you know, we’re trying to like create that space of safety, and then someone’s oppressed just by something, that might seem small to you,, as saying that song’s not - we can’t listen to that here , you may have just like caused harm or like trauma to that person.

And so, I think something we can talk about is like that it that it’s important that we are aware of our own biases that we bring into the space - based on like our own culture and our own experiences. So, just to give a personal example, you know, there have been times where someone has shared a song with me - and we were doing a um kind of an emotional response to it, where we were kind of identifying different emotions that we associated with what we were listening to. And, you know, I listened to the song and I was like, oh, I’m - I’m hearing anger and fear in this - that seems imbedded in this for me, or that’s what ’s like coming up for me as I listen to this. And then the client who chose the song afterwards, they’re saying, this feels like strength to me - they’re feeling like empowered from having listened to that song. So that’s valuable and that’s important - and like, anything - I mean, I can tell them what I got out of it, just - just to share of like here’s who I amend here’s - lemme be honest with you - I can share for those reasons. If I’m sharing to tell them, this is how you should feel, that’s a problem. What I can do - what I should - what I believe I should do is listen. I mean, that’s like one of the most important things we can do - is listen. What - what is your experience with that? What does that mean that that’s your connection to the song? Only they can tell me what is true for them. That is what is most important in the therapy space, is honoring that voice.

So, okay, something that I’ve heard, you know, adults say in regards to teens before is, I think they’re just doing that for shock value - ah, they’re just trying to test you. Well, first of all, I don’t think we should be assuming that. I don’t - I don’t think there’s ever like a good reason to make those assumptions. But, if there is some reason that they are trying to see if they can trust you, let’s actually like unpack what that means. And if somebody has experienced trauma, they have every reason to be trying to like protect themselves by figuring out if they can trust the people that they are communicating with. That is like ground level protecting ourselves - ground level like defense mechanism - can I trust you, am I safe here. So, even if that’s what’s going on, if your response is to say, no that song’s not okay, I’m not gonna listen to that, there might be implications imbedded in that response that you aren’t aware that you just communicated.

Let’s say - so you’re saying you can’t listen to this song I just shared with you. How can I share something that’s like deeply personal to me with you? How can you accept me, if you can’t even like listen to this song? I think we can also take it a step further and think about how um, like some of the messages we might carry about ourselves… let’s say that I’m carrying this deep feeling that I’m a horrible person, and you just told me that you don’t wanna listen to this song, sending me the message that you think that it’s a horrible song. And now, that’s just reenforced my feelings that I’m a horrible person - and maybe you think also that I’m a horrible person because you think this music is horrible. It might seem harmless, but it’s not.

Erica: I think that’s really a valid point, that - I feel like I’ve been talking about this a lot lately, so if you’ve already heard me talk about this, just bare with me for a second - that there’s this concept of intent versus impact —

Cassie: Mmm —

Erica: And I think it’s relevant regardless of the profession you have, or where you spend time, or who you spend time with - that this doesn’t matter. But I think it’s what you’re getting at here - is that the intent of whoever is saying like, oh we’re not gonna listen to this or this isn’t appropriate, they may have quote unquote good intentions, but that doesn’t - it doesn’t release them of the accountability for the impact that they have from the actions or the words or —

Cassie: Right —

Erica: Etc. And, you may never know the true impact of what you just said or what you just did.

Cassie: Yeah. I mean —

Erica: If it’s not safe for the person - er, they don’t feel safe in sharing that information.

Cassie: Yeah. And I mean, we’ve just been talking about like the way this individual may feel about themselves or like your connections to them, but if we go back to like cultural connections, or community connections, if you’re a white person and you’re - you’re speaking to like a black youth for example - and you’re telling them we’re not gonna listen to Rap music - we’re not gonna listen to Hip Hop, that’s not okay here - I mean, that even tells me you don’t know that music - you don’t know like what this music means - you’ve just taken in the wrong messages that have been promoted about what is okay, what is not okay, what is good music, what is bad music. We can go back to what you were saying about impact with this, I think. You’re expressing - like your - your decision just to not allow a certain sort of music makes this impact of saying now, like I mean, it’s - it’s an expression of racism, honestly. I mean, we might as well just call it what it is.

Erica: Yeah. Well, in - I imagine that in the therapy space, it’s not the therapist’s job to regulate what is good music, what s bad music.

Cassie: Correct!

Erica: We could do a whole other episode about what’s good art/what’s bad art, good music/bad music. The only caveat that I would have to that is when I was talking to Marissa um about her work at the psych unit at Seattle Children’s —

Cassie: Mmhmm —

Erica: There is a reality that music can be uplifting, or it can promote actions or feelings that a person may need to come out of. The way that she does that within the DBT paradigm is not a judgement on the music itself - it’s examining the mood, and the feelings, and the expression that the —

Cassie: Absolutely —!

Erica: Client has to that music. Yeah.

Cassie: Absolutely - absolutely. And, also, um, I think along with not making assumptions about that - it’s not the same for every person. Like, there might be a song that pumps me up and makes me feel like ready to go, and you hear it, Erica, and you’re like, I’m like mad now. We can just have like different emotional responses to music, and I - I think - we can’t know what those responses someone’s gonna have is until like we’ve heard it, or until like we’ve listened to what they’ve told us is going to be the reality. So, yeah.

Erica: Absolutely. Yeah —

Cassie: Absolutely —

Erica: Yeah.

Cassie: Something else I just wanted to touch on is - we’ve talked a lot about individual responses, and how like censorship can be harmful to the individuals’ like expression  and voice. When in a group setting, it can become a little bit more complicated —

Erica: Mmm —

Cassie: Um, just because, when you’re in a group, you have considerations for the safety of everyone in that space. SO, you know, a person over here may have just told me a song that they really wanna hear. But I have to make sure - it’s my job to make sure that I’m protecting everyone. I have to, like kind of navigate that, and make sure nobody’s being triggered in that space. We don’t wanna play a song that’s going to lead to some sort of like internal conflict for an individual, or an external conflict between a couple of people in that space —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Cassie: Um, that’s harm - that’s traumatizing. So, just to say like, while I will always promote and like engage in like conversations about the issues with censoring music, sometimes like, we can’t just play any song - and it’s not about you, or that I’m not willing to engage with this with you, but, while we are in a group, like, we have to think about everybody. And that’s something we can work through together as a group.

Erica: Mmm. I’m imagining that you’re giving a response that has the transparency with the person, that says like, this isn’t okay for this moment or this reason or - it’s not just a flat out, like, we’re not gonna do that, or… That kind of thing.

Cassie: Absolutely. I almost always try to write the song down, so at least there’s an some sort of like recognition or validation of like, you just gave me something - like, you know, at the very least, you just told me a song that you connect with, and I’m going to honor that piece of knowledge you gave me about you —

Erica: Sure —

Cassie: And show you that it means something - that I’m going to at least like know this.

Erica: Yeah. For listeners that want to investigate further into, like all of the things that we’ve talked about, or have a greater understanding of how they’re implicit bias is working in a space, what resources can you share with us?

Cassie: There are some articles, that I’m going to link you to later, that are not quite in my head right now. I wanted to just mention like, there are a couple of books by Tricia Rose - if you’re interested in knowing more about Hip Hop that I’d recommend - Black Noise and The Hip Hop Wars. And, I mean, this is like this is pretty dense, and, we can just acknowledge that like, we do not have to read a full book for it to be meaningful to us - you can pick up a book and read excerpts from a book, and that has meaning.

Erica: Mmm.

Cassie: So, um, The Gospel of Hip Hop by KRS One - is just like, if you’re trying to have a better understanding connected to the history of Hip Hop, connected to how Hip Hop is like more than music, like there’s culture there. These cultural pieces are what - what I think anyone who doesn’t already know, you really need to understand if you’re - if you’re like engaging with that music - or even if you’re choosing not to engage with that music, you need to understand what that means.

Erica: Mmm.

Cassie: Because it probably means more than you realize.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. I will throw my own book in there that —

Cassie: Yeah!

Erica: I read this book called Cultural Codes —

Cassie: Awesome —

Erica: I think is name is William Banfield. Super great book for just if you are interested in music in a general sense - if you’re a musician and wanting to do some antiracist work, I highly recommend this work - just recognizing the codes within the music that you are listening to or you’re playing or etc —

Cassie: Yeah —

Erica: And where it really comes from…. It’s not like a big book, but I think it’s super, super important. So…All the resources that we just mentioned, and the resources Cassie’s gonna send me will be linked in the episode notes and also on our website. You can find the website at S as in Sam, C as in Cat, Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on all social media @SCMusicProject. If you are enjoying the podcast, we encourage you to subscribe, share with your friends, you’re family - leave us a review, it helps other people to find our podcast and start learning about the work we do. Also, just thank you again to Cassie for chatting - I know that you’re really passionate about this particular thing.

Cassie: [Chuckling] Thank you, Erica. It’s always good to talk to you.

Erica: [Chuckles] Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]