Ep. 017 | Being a Queer Music Therapist

Today, we chat with guest, Vee Gilman, a board-certified music therapist, as they share about their personal experience of being a queer music therapist.

LEARN MORE

Queer: A Graphic History by Meg John Barker and Illustrated by Julia Scheele | Book

Gender Affirming Voicework: An Introduction to Music Therapy by Maevon Gumble | Journal Article

White Oleander by Jane Fitch | Book

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about Being a Queer Music Therapist, with board certified music therapist, Vee Fansler. Vee works with children, youth, and families in transition; additionally, with 5 years of clinical xperience, they supervise music therapy staff and interns as senior music therapist at the Snohomish County Music Project. In the final stages of their masters in music therapy, their work centers trauma-informed care and the political nature of therapy, highlighting the ecological link between individual and communal wellbeing.

Before we begin, here’s a quick little note from Vee.

Vee: Thanks, Erica. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the word queer. So, I’m gonna be using the word queer quite a bit throughout these episodes, and I’m gonna use it in several different ways. But, until slash unless I describe another way of using it, I’m gonna be using it as an identity, and as sort of an umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community. And there’s a few reasons why I tend to use the word queer, rather than that acronym - one being just that it’s a little less awkward to say out loud. Another one being that, listing out all of those letters - there’s always identities being left out, and so it creates sometimes preference or privilege within the whole spectrum. Another thing I like about the word queer is that it gives us one unifying word to speak about identities related to gender and sexuality that are seen as deviant or non normative, rather than being sort of like this cohort of very separate things jumbled together.

And then, finally, I really like, for me, the political implications of the word queer. So, to me, it represents not only an umbrella over each of those identities, but also some kind of wind under that umbrella that destabilizes that entire notion of static, rigid identities in the domains of gender and sexuality - even being like a construct that is really solid.

And, for me, I also really like that queer is a word that is being reclaimed. So, some might say that it has been reclaimed, but also, language is always active and always evolving. So I think it’s fair to say that this word is always actively being reclaimed. So, it originated a s a slur - being used against our community. Um, and so I really appreciate the power of a word being reclaimed, where a group of people that came before me, really, have said, you know, you can’t use this against me if I’m actually not ashamed of it. But, with that being said, especially for queer elders, this is a word that can have a lot of trauma tied to it. So it’s always important, especially if you’re not a member of the LGBTQ community, to check in with people about what their preferences are regarding this language. Because this - this is one of those words that can be, for someone like me, something that feels very um, liberating, um, but for someone else, it can feel triggering. So, yeah.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Hi, Vee, thanks for being on the podcast again!

Vee: Yes! I love it!

Erica: It’s been a while - we’ve missed you. But we’re so glad you’re back.

Vee: Mmhmm.

Erica: Can you start with - for us - a little introduction maybe to who you are personally? What your journey has been as a queer person - various stages of that? Etc.

Vee: Yeah. SO, in terms of my queer identities, uh, I’m a nonbinary queer person, and I identify as non-binary or genderqueer, in terms of gender, and as queer, in terms of sexuality. And, so I’ve had sort of 2 different like coming out or coming into or learning myself kinds of journeys with those 2 different strains of identity, and in the ways that they kind of intertwine. So um, I was someone who just didn’t really think of myself as a person with a body until [chuckles] um I left home. I was 18 or 19 and I had just been very in my head, and when I look back on that, I think, you know, that being a queer person in Kansas, and in some of the like religion communities and even just, you know, kind of my geographic area and all of  those things played into the ways that I maybe cut off parts of myself - cut off maybe aspects of my embodiment.

Um, and so, I didn’t have an experience that some people have - and that, you know, a lot of the youth I work with have - of like knowing an identity about myself and actively closeting it through like middle school/high school, like that adolescence period. I just kind of had a block. So, for me, in a lot of ways, coming out quote unquote was also me coming into um my own sense of self and learning about that.

So, for me, the word queer - and learning that it even was a word, and what it could mean - was really important for me in finding something that I identified with. So, for me, the political nature of what it means to be queer - the fluid nature of what it means to be queer - that I didn’t have to sort of define an identity and know that to be true about myself forever and ever was helpful.

And, so then, sort of similarly, in the last couple of years, learning what nonbinary identity was - or learning what genderqueer identity was - gave me the space to learn these things about myself - or to play with and experiment and discover things about myself too. I had sort of known of nonbinary genders, but not really understood what that could mean. And so being in closer  relation with other nonbinary people, and actually, especially nonbinary music therapists, created space where I was able to have some realizations about myself, and like, oh, this makes sense why some of these things have always felt a little bit dissonant - or just sort of like… I wrote a poem called Woman is a Loose-Fitting Garment - I had this gender that like I could fit into - or I could sort of like let it hang off of my body, but it wasn’t something that really fit me. It was something that I was like able to kind of make work, you know. But um - and that there were gifts about it, you know, there were things about womanhood, and especially like lineage and stuff like that, that I could really honor, but that I could also recognize that this doesn’t really personally fit me in the most me way.

Erica: Mmm. Yeah. It’s interesting - for listeners that don’t know, this whole conversation is a little bit more interesting to me…

[Vee chuckles]

Erica: Than maybe other conversations I would have with queer people about their queer identity, because Vee and I met and started working together at like - for - at least for me was a very like - I was still forming identity - and like just transitioned freshly out of undergraduate degrees —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: And we were both new professionals —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: ANd - we don’t regularly have conversations about our personal identities all the time, like how that’s changing and growing —

Vee: Right —

Erica: And evolving and… But I’ve like been here, working with you - alongside you on these journeys —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: SO I can like think back to like when you referenced certain time periods in your life. I’m like, oh yeah  —

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: Like I can like remember who you were and how you presented yourself —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: And how you expressed yourself. Now, 6 years later —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: I can recognize how that has all evolved, and how you’ve evolved as a professional and as a music therapist. Which brings me to my next question - is —

[Vee chuckles]

Erica: [Chuckles] How does this evolution of who you are - in coming into these identities - how does that impact your work as a music therapist, in terms of like client relationships —?

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: And then, how does that impact your relationships with just like other professionals, whether they are music therapists specifically - or like educators, social workers —

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: Anybody else you’re encountering on a professional basis?

Vee: Yeah. Um, wow - there’s so many ways I’m thinking about to answer that. So, one thing that is coming to mind right away - I mean, first of all, of course, the way that I show up in a space impacts everything about the space.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Vee: So, um, everyone that I interact with has their own kind of schemas - like whole worlds of ideas around everything about how I look, how I speak, what I - you know, the ways that I present myself - around queer people in general, um, around - not to mention like the ways that my other identities, like you know, me showing up as a white therapist or a white queer therapist specifically can impact people differently. So all of those - you know, the ways that I present myself in a space affects it. And for some people, it might make them feel safer, like especially when we have shared marginalized identities - like that can be really significant.

Like, I think to myself often, when I was an adolescent, I didn’t really know any out queer adults. Like, there are people who, now I know, were in my life at the time and were queer, but they weren’t out to me —

Erica: Same —

Vee: Yeah. And, if I had known people in close intimate relationships, like what we have in - in music therapy, who just existed being queer, I wonder so much how that would have impacted me. And if there would have been anything that sort of awakened in me sooner - or if I would have had language - you know, what that even awakened in me when I - when  I had access to it. Uh, I wonder what that would have meant for me.

But, conversely, also, you know, there are plenty of negative stereotypes about queer folk. Definitely early on, as a student, and when I had other jobs, I was concerned about stereotypes that - you know, if people have quote unquote deviant sexualities, that they’re not safe to work with children. And things like that, where other people may feel really frightened, or alarmed, or like walking on eggshells - like, people can have a whole range of responses to just me showing up and sort of being visibly queer - like [chuckles]

Erica: Mmhmm —

Vee: Um, I think, in terms of my therapeutic paradigm, I think that my queer identity impacts my idea of authenticity. For me, I learned a way of understanding gender, and that brought me insight as to how I had felt in relation to the other ways of  - you know, the sort of binary ways of understanding gender that I’d grown up with. And it made sense why I had felt some dissonance with that. And then, for me, like trying things on and playing with the ways that I present myself helped me understand what of gender - you know, what of my assigned gender or what of gender, in general, I wanted to keep, and what I wanted to throw away, and what like felt really nice and warm and snuggly, and what felt like useful for certain purposes but I could set down again. Um, and for me, all of those things are authentic.

Erica: Mmm —

Vee: And, the ways that I present myself inform the ways I understand myself. And, in - vice versa, right - the ways that - the more I learn about myself, the more I can present a version of myself that feels integrated. So for me, I think authenticity feels like something that can be like always true and changing and fluid, rather than being like a static sort of nature thing. I’ve been shaped by the relationships I’ve been in, and the communities I’ve been in, and the language that’s surrounded me, and all of this - my whole life. SO, I think that does impact, more broadly, the ways that I think about, um, being alongside people in learning about themselves.

Erica: Mmm. I really love the - your - your philosophy on authenticity - that it’s this flluid, evolving thing —

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: And it’s not static.

Vee: Yeah.

Erica: I think, um, there’s just - in the world in general, there’s just too much of - in my world, there’s too many people that are saying like, everything is like this absolute, and that there are - there’s like lack of recognition of spectrums?

Vee: Mmm.

Erica: And even in things that I find true and believe to be true, there’s still like gray area, and there’s still spectrum.

Vee: Mmm.

Erica: And there’s - I think there should still be allowed this evolution of being —

Vee: Mmm, right, right—

Erica: I don’t - I - I think - if you are stuck on a static point —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: That that’s not a good thing. Like, I have some concerns, and like, red flags about like —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: If - if you’re just static —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: And like, this one thing is static. Like, shouldn’t things always be growing and evolving, and —?

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: Yeah —

Vee: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah.

Vee: So - the - I’m excited for when we talk about queering and queer theory  more, because that’s so much of what queer theory speaks to - is like —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Vee: We’re given these options that are like static, binary, this or that, black and white. And queer theory’s like, what about colors, and gray areas, and destabilizing, and like, pictures made of all the colors, you know?

Erica: Mmm —

Vee: Um, and I think music is so so like beautiful for that way of describing identity. There’s a section in the book White Oleander, which is my wife’s favorite book, and it’s talks about how words are so static. Like, chair, stone - you know, as soon as you put something in words, it’s like this and not that - like, maybe particularly in English, right - it’s like pretty rigidly defined sometimes.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Vee: Um, and in music, we can express - you know, rather than being like, oh no, am I bi or pan or queer, like, what do these words mean and not mean? We can sort of describe ourselves in ways that layer our multiple identities together, and that reflect the ways we change over time, and that aren’t like limiting in the ways we understand ourselves, but can be helpful in defining, and also expansive.

Erica: Absolutely. Yeah, I’m so on board with you.[Vee and Erica chuckle]

Erica: I’m so on board!

Vee: [Chuckling] Imagine that!

[Vee and Erica laugh]

Erica: Um, okay, so you kinda described how your queerness - like how do you bring that into space - it affects the context of it. And context matters - in like all spaces.

Vee: Yes! Yes, yes!

Erica: Um, can you tell me about the work you’re doing?

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: SO, you’re a queer music therapist - how does it impact the types of people you’re working with, the programs you’re developing —

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: Um, I’m particularly curious about - I know you’re doing some clinical work with youth in schools - that kinda thing —

Vee: Mmm —

Erica: But you’re also the director of our internship program —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: At the Music Project —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: And so, how does that inform your internship and how you create that experience for somebody?

Vee: Yeah. SO our next episode is about music therapy and LGBTQ people, so I’ll talk more about the clinical piece [chuckles] probably in that one.

Erica: Great.

Vee: Um, but yeah, something that’s really important to me is the idea of lineage and representation. You know, queer people, I think we’re really good at sort of building family - or at least, one of the ways that we’re able to survive is by building family, because family rejection can be such a big part of, you know, queer people’s experiences. And I think that we similarly have lineage like that - like, I think so much about, in general, how I’m able to exist out loud and have that life the I have because queer folk came before me who were willing to really put themselves on the line and fight for our right to exist. Um, and that’s true even within this field, that there’s queer folk who are generations um older than me who have created space so that I can be a queer music therapist, and not be like - A like this is my one thing about me is that I’m queer, and that’s what we’re gonna talk about any time we talk [chuckles] —

Erica: Yeah —

Vee: B just feel safe enough to leave that identity activated, and not be walking into professional spaces very often, like, oh do I need to shut this part of myself off? I think that’s really important to me in creating space for me. And, from that, it makes me think a lot about what is my role in creating space for music therapists who are just entering the field, or who may enter the field in the future. Like, I really want music therapy to be a field where who we are is reflective of the communities that we’re in and the people that we serve. And where, it’s not just that we let people into this sort of dominant thing, it’s that we become a field that is friendly to people of marginalized identities. We don’t just have to be like this is my identity and so I’m gonna foster growth in people who are just like me - I think in activating identities that are outside of the dominant norm, we make space for - for folks outside of that dominant space more broadly than we sometimes consider.

So with the intern - you mentioned the internship —

Erica: Mmhmm –

Vee: That’s something that’s really important to me because - well, internship is such a pivotal time in our professional development - it really shapes so much of who we are, and how we conceive of the field, and how we conceive of ourselves within the field - all that. So, it’s this really sacred half of a year or so, um, and —

Erica: Or longer —

Vee: Yeah. And I think the supervisor relationship is really important as well, and it can be really foundational to a lot of things.

Erica: Mmm.

Vee: SO, because we’re trying to foster a field that is friendly to people of marginalized identities, and that reflects the communities we serve, it’s really important to me in internship that we seek out people who come from spaces that - come from spaces of marginalization, and who understand how power and hegemony operate, because of those lived experience and marginalized identities - and who can be self-relevant role models for clients based on those shared identities. The internship with us is very grounded in like understanding cultural identity, and understanding ourselves in cultural context, um and so there’s a lot of personal work that goes into that - there’s a lot of like reading and theory to understand those things that goes into it. And then, in relation to clients, we’re always thinking about what are the cross-cultural dynamics, like, what are the shared identities that we have, and what are the things where we hold more power and less power than clients, and how is that impacting what our transferences are, what our countertransferences are, and things like that.

And then, I mean, I think it’s really unique that that at the Music Project, we - we do have a staff that is so supportive, and where - I mean, I think about half of our therapy team is nonbinary. So I think that’s special too - that, some people are coming from schools where they’ve been the only uh queer student, who had to be like, hey, everyone, did you know, like [chuckles] about asking about pronouns. And they like fight this sort of dominant like huge bureaucratic system, right. And so then to come to this - this little bubble [laughs] of like, you know, a space where there are so many shared identities, and so much shared language and stuff like that - can just create this kind of greenhouse feeling, where um that identity is allowed to blossom - it’s not something where it’s like, you know, having to push and fight to exist. We can’t ask people to sprout if they’re in an environment where they’ll be trampled on, or where there’s like acid rain that’s gonna come down as soon as they pop their head up. And so the best ways that we can foster identity development, and foster people feeling safe to present the identities that they have and may already be aware of, is by having that nurturing environment. So that, once someone sprouts, there is that sunshine and rain and, you know, warm, safe environment to grow and… for me, SCMP has been a space like that, and I think other people have experienced that too.

Erica: Yeah. I mean, one of our actual official core values is that like we affirm people like as they are in their most authentic —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: Ways of being and, absolutely, that goes for anybody that has a queer identity that maybe isn’t activated yet.

Vee: Mmhmm.

Erica: Um, if their still evolving and forming, and in their like early stage - everybody should be evolving and forming, but - that also goes for - for other types of identities —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: Um, it’s like, our staff is a wide variety and mix of like things that make us who we are, and —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: So, yeah. For - for students that are looking to do their internship here, like, yes, we wanna affirm like all of your identities.

Vee: Mmm.

Erica: Even if - even if your identity isn’t queer —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: Maybe you have other identities that are still in progress, and you would like to grow those, like, this is a safe space —

Vee: Yeah —

Erica: For that to happen. And, for general community members that are looking for mental health support or any other kinds of support that we can provide, like that is also available —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: To clients and to their families. It’s not reserved just to people that have a badge when they come into the building. We are running to the edge of time for today’s episode.

Vee: Mmm.

Erica: Um, but I just have a c - just have a couple more things I wanted to ask you. One is that, for anybody that’s listening that is maybe looking to receive services, or wants to apply for our internship program, or is maybe still in their degree program and doing clinical hours or practicum hours - and they have a queer identity, whether open or unactivated - what wisdom would you give to like —

[Vee chuckles]

Erica: Like, to those people, which - I feel like is a really cliche question, but —

Vee: Yeah, no —

Erica: That’s part of the mentorship process, like passing on things you’ve already learned.

Vee: Yeah. And I think also, you know, like you don’t have to be at the Music Project to have queer community in your work, and to sort of find affirming spaces. I, personally, am just really passionate about connecting with, you know, young music - like music therapy students in general, particularly of queer identities. And my information is available through the podcast and through our website. There’s Facebook groups that exist for LGBTQ music therapy students and professionals - there’s also a trans and nonbinary music therapists and students Facebook page.

So, there are ways of building community in like that. There’s, yeah, there’s pockets everywhere, and I think that the pockets of community are really what, for me, help make some of the more dominant spaces survivable… okay-to-exist-in-able. If people are interested in internship with us or in more direct involvement, they can email our informational email - info@SCMusicProject.org. Maevon Gumble is a uh nonbinary music therapist who’s doing awesome stuff with voicework and trans identities - and just is important to me as a person and their existence and their work is part of what kind of invited me into recognizing my own nonbinary identity, so…

Erica: Awesome.

Vee: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, so, the resources - Vee will send them to me, and they’ll be in our episode notes and on our website. Our website is S as in Sam - C as in Cat - Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). Uh, you can also follow us on all major social media platforms - SCMusicProject. Next week, Vee will be back, and we’ll talk more about the clinical work that Vee does with LGBT groups, and then also thinking about how queer identity shows up in non-queer like spaces —

Vee: Mmhmm —

Erica: And what that looks like. So, thanks, Vee for being here today —

Vee: Mmm, yeah, —

Erica: And, thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.

Vee: Yes! Thanks, Erica.

[Podcast outro music plays]