Ep. 018 | Music Therapy & Queer Folx
Today, we chat with guest, Vee Gilman, a board-certified music therapist, as they share about their clinical work with queer folx and the importance of queer recognition across the entire lifespan.
LEARN MORE
Best Practices for Therapists Working with the LGBTQ Community with Team Rainbow by Music Therapy Ed | Video
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning Best Practices in Music Therapy by Whitehead-Pleaux, et al. | Journal Article
Perspectives on Queer Music Therapy: A Qualitative Analysis of Music Therapists’ Reactions to Radically Inclusive Practice by Boggan, et al. | Journal Article
Songwriting Alternative Gender Cultures with Young People as an ‘After-Queer’ Methodology by E. Scrine | Journal Article
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about LGBTQ+ in Music Therapy, with board certified music therapist, Vee Fansler. Vee works with children, youth, and families in transition; additionally, with 5 years of clinical xperience, they supervise music therapy staff and interns as senior music therapist at the Snohomish County Music Project. In the final stages of their masters in music therapy, their work centers trauma-informed care and the political nature of therapy, highlighting the ecological link between individual and communal wellbeing.
Before we begin, here’s a quick little note from Vee.
Vee: Thanks, Erica. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the word queer. So, I’m gonna be using the word queer quite a bit throughout these episodes, and I’m gonna use it in several different ways. But, until slash unless I describe another way of using it, I’m gonna be using it as an identity, and as sort of an umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community. And there’s a few reasons why I tend to use the word queer, rather than that acronym - one being just that it’s a little less awkward to say out loud. Another one being that, listing out all of those letters - there’s always identities being left out, and so it creates sometimes preference or privilege within the whole spectrum. Another thing I like about the word queer is that it gives us one unifying word to speak about identities related to gender and sexuality that are seen as deviant or non normative, rather than being sort of like this cohort of very separate things jumbled together.
And then, finally, I really like, for me, the political implications of the word queer. So, to me, it represents not only an umbrella over each of those identities, but also some kind of wind under that umbrella that destabilizes that entire notion of static, rigid identities in the domains of gender and sexuality - even being like a construct that is really solid.
And, for me, I also really like that queer is a word that is being reclaimed. So, some might say that it has been reclaimed, but also, language is always active and always evolving. So I think it’s fair to say that this word is always actively being reclaimed. So, it originated a s a slur - being used against our community. Um, and so I really appreciate the power of a word being reclaimed, where a group of people that came before me, really, have said, you know, you can’t use this against me if I’m actually not ashamed of it. But, with that being said, especially for queer elders, this is a word that can have a lot of trauma tied to it. So it’s always important, especially if you’re not a member of the LGBTQ community, to check in with people about what their preferences are regarding this language. Because this - this is one of those words that can be, for someone like me, something that feels very um, liberating, um, but for someone else, it can feel triggering. So, yeah.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome back, Vee, for the second episode!
Vee: Yes! Thanks for having me.
Erica: Last week’s was so good - I really enjoyed last week’s. We talked a lot about authenticity, and how that informs what we do and how we do it.
Vee: Mmm.
Erica: And, today, we’re gonna talk about - more specifically about the clinical work you’re doing. SO, can you tell us about the queer-specific program —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: That you are running, and like what a session would look like, etc? And then, maybe like what your hopes are for other types of programming, or how we engage in a therapeutic relationship with other people in other spaces?
Vee: So, I facilitate a group for LGBTQ youths at a high school. Um, it was started by a mental health therapist who actually was brought into the school in response to a community wide trauma - her role didn’t really have anything to do with LGBTQ youth or work or anything. But she arrived at the school, and she was like, this is a very large high school, and they have nothing for queer students. They had no GSA, they had no like specific therapy supports. So she started a talk therapy group, and I visited with them and did a music session like maybe once every couple months, or once every quarter. And then, her position - the funding ran out for it - so she was no longer at the school, and I got to continue the group as music therapy.
I mention that partly because this group was started out of a communal trauma. And even though the issues weren’t, on paper, clearly tied together, I think that having mental health supports for young people impacts everything about the dynamics at the school - or just like in any system in the community. And I also mention it because - since the legacy of this group is that it was started by a talk therapist, there’s a - kind of a talking-heavy aspect - or nature —
Erica: Mmm —
Vee: Of the group that has carried on from that. The group has also really expanded - so, when it started, there were 4 or 5 people usually. And now we have 2 back to back sessions, which usually have 12-15 kids in each.
Every week, we do a check-in - so, every person in group says their name and their pronouns, and then there’s a check-in question, which varies from week to week, and then, usually we do a music-based activity or experience for the rest of the time after that. The check-in, I feel, is very important, and when I’ve talked to the group about what they want to happen, several people have said check-in is the main piece. Um, and that specifically saying names and pronouns every week - even when we already know each other.- is significant, because it gives people the opportunity to try on names and pronouns that they may be coming into, in a - in a space that they know will be safe —
Erica: Mmm —
Vee: And where people will reflect it, and use those ways of referring to them throughout that time. And there’s a lower risk to it than, you know, changing something on social media, or announcing something to family or teachers, or you know, more public spaces like that. And - even for me, I mean, my - I’ve changed my - my name and pronouns —
[Erica and Vee chuckle]
Vee: Since facilitating the group. And there are group members who’ve been there for that and noticed me changing uh the ways I introduce myself, from, you know, my - the former set of pronouns that I used, to giving sort of a mix of pronouns, and then to really shifting to they/them. Um, and shifting my name also.
Erica: Yeah. Mmm. So, I understand that it’s like a talk-heavy group in comparison to maybe other types of music therapy programs that you would facilitate.
Vee: Mmm.
Erica: Um, what kinds of music making elements do you add into that —
Vee: Right - yeah —
Erica: Group specifically?
Vee: So, we do quite a bit of song discussion - so we’ll bring in a song and talk about what it means as a group. Or rewrite songs - or um pull lyrics from songs to create something new. Um, and we’ve done some improvisation-based things - like, sometimes we’ll do improvisations around gender. Like, playing what the stereotype of what a man should be or should sound like - playing the stereotype of what a woman should be or should sound like - and then trying to find a sound that represents who you are and how you fit within that in terms of gender. Um, so those things happen more through improvisation - active musicking. And, this group has really responded positively to songwriting experiences. So we’ve written several anthems and songs about certain topics together, or rewritten and parodied songs. And, I think that I’ll share 1 or 2 of those at some point in the episode —
Erica: Yeah. Yeah, we’re recording this in advance of this week’s group. And so, Vee is going to get proper permissions from group members before sharing. Um, I will add the songs at the end of the episode, so you’re going to have to stay tuned —
[Vee chuckles]
Erica: Through the whole episode to hear the music.
Vee: Yeah. Yeah. So we have a group anthem that was written - actually, in group a couple years ago now - but that we close out group with almost every time. And it’s really nice because it’s - it’s pretty quick, but it’s very - um, it helps with our cohesion. And sometimes, you know, the discussions that we have can be a deep dive, and can get pretty heavy and sad, and so it gives us a nice way to present closure, without having, you know, like sort of a trite like Goodbye song doesn’t really work with [chucles] teens.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Vee: But for them to sing together an anthem that they wrote is - is pretty powerful. And, I - we’ve had group members who cried the first time that they heard it.
Erica: Aww.
Vee: And um… Yeah, so even though a lot of our group members now weren’t present when we rewrote the song in group, it’s something that is just kind of part of the culture of the group now. Um, that people know it - there’ve been times when, you know I was absent, and someone guest facilitated, and they’ve been like, no, we have to do the anthem. [chuckles] So, yeah.
Erica: Yeah. What are the unique challenges that these kids are experiencing in this particular life stage that they’re in —?
Vee: Mmhmm - mmhmm.
Erica: And what are maybe the challenges that an older adult queer person would experience, or just like, there’s a lot of different stages within a person’s life.
Vee: Right. Yes, I love that. Look - just - again, queering! Things change over time - things change, you know, in terms of like where we grow up, what our - generation we’re in, what our unique family system is. So, um, yeah, there’s no 1 way to be like, yes, I know how to work with queer people —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Vee: Like, I am culturally competent at that. Because everything intersects with everything. And another - sorry, I’m backing up again and then I’ll come into answering the real question —
[Erica and Vee chuckle]
Vee: Like I do. Another thing I think is important is, in therapy sometimes - the way I learned music therapy is that we thought about populations, and we thought about like needs of a population. And so it almost felt like these parts of who a person is are the issue, and that’s what we’re gonna try to resolve, right.
Erica: Mmm.
Vee: And so it’s very important - and sometimes, maybe even clearer when we think about queer people, but applies to many other situations… It’s very important that we don’t problematize queer identity in working with queer people, right. Like, queer identity is the thing we’re trying to affirm and learn about and explore, and all these things. The problem is that we live in spaces that can be violent towards those pieces of ourselves. The problem is environments that are antagonistic to our existence. So, any work that we’re trying to do with queer folks is about that ecological tie between who am I, and what is my environment, and how do I fit here.
So, some of the goals that I have for this group are that group members will, individually, gain coping skills and tools to maintain their mental health to just survive contexts that can be antagonistic to them. Part of my goal is that we’ll have kind of peer to peer connections, or a community within the group, so that we extend our web of who is actually there to support us and affirm us. And so we can have that little greenhouse feeling like I talked about before of like a nurturing environment where we can exist. And then, a third goal that I have - and I think we have in group - is that the group members will support each other in broader like social and political actions that impact their level of safety within their systems more broadly.
So, since we’ve had an LGBTQ music therapy support group, where kids have been able to come and see like, oh, I’m not alone here - there’s like 15 other people in the room who are sharing some aspect of my experience - there’s also been a GSA that students have pushed for and that has started at the school. There’s been students who presented to the school board about how to be supportive to LGBTQ students. Um, there’s students who are working to be on their student counsel, and to make sure that there’s representation in their student leadership of LGBTQ people and interests. In order to be able to grow in healthy ways, we have to have multiple systems of support - not just individual mental health coping, right - or not just like, you know, running ourselves into the ground.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Vee: So that’s - that sort of speaks to your question. I guess I’ll also say - because you asked about age groups specifically - to me, I think that the most difficult thing - or, not the most difficult thing, but - a very challenging thing about being a queer adolescent is that you are old enough to know, or have a sense of, who you are, but you’re not old enough to shape your environment based on those things. So, if your family is not open to or is not friendly to an aspect of your existence, then to share that part of yourself - or to be outed in that part of yourself - can threaten your housing, can threaten your financial security, can threaten your sense of love and attachment for the people who are supposed to be there no matter what. Every - like, everything, from our most basic like health and safety needs, to our like more expansive needs - in terms of like spiritual health and, you know, creative development as people - can be threatened if, you know - if, as teens, we’re in environments that don’t know how to care for all the pieces of who we are. And similarly - so, you don’t have control over your - what your family environment is, what your home environment is - and then, for students, the school environment can be similar - where they can have this little pocket of support in the therapy group, but the broader social context is much less predictable. And the dominant lens can still be really hostile to LGBTQ students.
Erica: Yeah.
Vee: And that’s another reason that having a community of queer people, who will stand up for one another, can be really important - where, when you can’t avoid the - the things that can feel violent - or the adverse experiences - you can at least have buffering supports from other people.
Erica: Mmm. Yeah, that’s so true.
Vee: Um, you asked about other age groups, right? I think that’s a nice question. Because, I feel like, when people are like, I’m gonna do a queer group, it’s like for young, white, middle class [chuckles] students, who otherwise make straight A’s and already play music and all this stuff. Queer people exist in spaces where those identities are really not acknowledged - sometimes - even - often by music therapists.
Um, so to be a queer person in an elder care facility, for example, might be really challenging because of not knowing the level of friendliness in the institution. And also because, sometimes, you know, with chosen family being like such a core component of queer community - if things are defined by decisions that your biological family - your biological children make, and you don’t have biological - or even adoptive children, because - older queer adults now faced so much discrimination children, in family-ing openly. And so that can impact the amounts of familial support that enter into that space. And people who have found agency in adulthood, and been able to shape communities for themselves, may enter into an institution and then find themselves, once again, in that situation like high school - where you no longer have agency over your home environment and your social environment - like who’s around you in your day to day living space.
I wonder if part of why sexuality identities get erased in elder spaces is because sexuality is thought of in a way that’s so tied to sex itself. And where groups of people who get socially kind of desexualized - like never thought of as sexual entities - such as elders and disabled adults - when we erase those aspects of who they are, we maybe are more likely to erase the ways that that impacts identity. Where - first of all, part of the LGBTQ+ spectrum is aromantic and asexual people - so, not having sex is in and of itself, you know —
Erica: Yeah —
Vee: Part of that spectrum. But like, even for people who aren’t like actively in relationships, the identity that goes with - you know, that sexuality entails, and the ways that it is tied to gender and gender presentation, and all of that, are still - are still there, and are still parts of who a person is.
Erica: Within my family - even like - one of my grandfathers has very severe dementia —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: And so like, the ability to even self advocate for like —
Vee: Yeah —
Erica: What he wants to eat, or what he likes or doesn’t like, or —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: All of those those - those kinds of things are just taken —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: From him in that level of autonomy is gone.
Vee: Right.
Erica: And - and even - one of - one of my parents has Parkinson’s, which is degenerative, so it’s going to get worse as their lifespan goes on - and we’re starting to recognize that parts of their autonomy are going to be taken away, like as they progress into older and older and older age. So - we’re talking about gender and sexuality specifically in this conversation —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: But for older adults - for people that are in these um assisted living centers and nursing centers - there’s a lot about a person that gets erased —
Vee: Yeah —
Erica: As soon as they are entered into that facility. And then it’s amplified —
Vee: Yeah —
Erica: When you’re - when you are queer, specifically, because maybe there’s the lack of family support, or knowledge, or —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: Context matters - like, again —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Context always matters.
Vee: Mmm.
Erica: So like the history right now of a queer person that’s in their 80s —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Is very different than the context and history for a queer person in their 20’s –
Vee: Right —
Erica: Or that is 12. Like —
Vee: Yeah—
Erica: Yeah.
Vee: Yeah. The systems that we’re in impact who we are, and how we’re allowed to show up, and how much we’re even allowed to learn about ourselves. SO, for people who are in systems, whether that’s family systems or institutions, that don’t actively create space, or nurture those aspects of self, uh it’s easy for them to become erased or shut down - or, honestly, never even maybe excavated. Um, you know, some people live in institutions, of one sort or another, their entire lives, and when those institutions don’t create the space for exploring identity, and naming and, being able to safely own those things and exist within them, um, you know, it impacts everything.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so, for whoever needs it, what kinds of resources would you offer to listeners?
Vee: So, even if you’re not working with a specific LGBTQ group or client about being LGBTQ, it’s maybe helpful to think about it in parallel with like universal design. Where, if you assume that like, if you’re giving a presentation and you assume that a blind person may attend your presentation, and you have Braille materials or internet accessible materials available, and you have enough space to navigate, you know, the - the room or whatever - that someone could access it with a dog a with a wheelchair or whatever - then no one is suddenly problematized when they enter the space. And similarly, like, queer people don’t only exist in LGBTQ environments. So if you kind of assume that, in any space that you’re in, that someone may have a queer or trans identity, then you’re gonna be more mindful of the language that you use, the songs that you choose, the assumptions that you make, you know, in sort of like, so, like, do you have a husband - are you married - or those sort of gender tropes that show up in song lyrics and stuff like that - all those things - you’ll be more mindful of if you’re sort of universally aware that queer people exist everywhere - and that it’s not a visible identity all the time - it’s something that, often enough, people are actively closeting and that you couldn’t really identify based on appearance anyway.
Erica: Yeah. I think the least a person can do, whether in a helping profession or not, is to give other people the opportunity to be safe.
Vee: Yeah.
Erica: Like, get yourself safe if you’re not in a safe environment, and then be kind and create safety for others.
Vee: Yeah.
Erica: Okay, so, do you have any resources maybe - or could you provide me later - at a later point after we record this of some like simple things that people could look at to help them start a journey of like, okay, I’m going to like use this kind of language, and —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: Not do this - or those types of resources. Does that make sense?
Vee: Yeah. I know that Team Rainbow is a coalition that was doing best practices for music therapists working with LGBTQ people - I think that there is a document that I can share about that.
Erica: Yeah. All the resources that Vee sends me, I’ll put them in the episode notes - they’re also on our website. So if you want to know more about the Music Project, or just to find these resources, our website is S and as in Sam - C as in Cat - Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on all social media @SCMusicProject. Next week, Vee will be back for a third time —
[Vee chuckles]
Erica: To do an episode about queering. And I’m not even gonna tell you what like really what it’s about, because I want you to come listen - it’s probably not what you think it is if you’ve never heard the term. So please stay curious. SO, thanks again, Vee for —
Vee: Yes —!
Erica: Joining us today.
Vee: Thanks!
Erica: Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
Vee: Woo hoo!
[Vee sings and plays the guitar]
This is an anthem for unique kids
Kids with no support
Yeah we keep on living
Yeah we keep on thriving
Loving who we are
Yeah we do it our way
Being as we break down
Don’t care if you hate us
Sorry if you’re jealous
Blame it on the past
I know that I’m moving fast
Even though I’m placed last
Anthem for unique kids
Don’t need your approval
Because when we live
We will always thrive
This is an anthem
For how we live, live
This is an anthem for how we live
For how we live
We are the beaten
We are the bruised
We are the ones who love and choose
People will judge us
Use and abuse us
But we won’t let go
We dream
We grow
And we never give up our hope
We are beautiful
The strong
We are gay in some way
We are one
This is an anthem for unique kids
Kids with no support
Yeah we keep on living
Yeah we keep on thriving
Loving who we are
Yeah we do it our way
Being as we break down
Don’t care if you hate us
Sorry if you’re jealous
Blame it on the past
I know that I’m moving fast
Even though I’m placed last
Anthem for unique kids
Don’t need your approval
Because when we live
We will always thrive
This is an anthem
For how we live, live
This is an anthem
For how we live
For how we live
We are the brave
The determined
We are the ones who care
People neglect us
They try to change us
But we’re than we appear
We scream
We shout
And we never sleep
We are human
Not monsters
We are free to be you and me
We are one
[Podcast outro plays]