Ep. 019 | Queering
Today, we chat with guest, Vee Gilman, a board-certified music therapist, as they share about the transformative nature of applying queer theory in creative arts therapies.
LEARN MORE
Voices: A Special Issue on Queering Music Therapy Edited by Candice Bain and Maevon Gumble | Journal Articles
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about Queering, with board certified music therapist, Vee Fansler. Vee works with children, youth, and families in transition; additionally, with 5 years of clinical xperience, they supervise music therapy staff and interns as senior music therapist at the Snohomish County Music Project. In the final stages of their masters in music therapy, their work centers trauma-informed care and the political nature of therapy, highlighting the ecological link between individual and communal well-being.
Before we begin, here’s a quick little note from Vee.
Vee: Thanks, Erica. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the word queer. So, I’m gonna be using the word queer quite a bit throughout these episodes, and I’m gonna use it in several different ways. But, until slash unless I describe another way of using it, I’m gonna be using it as an identity, and as sort of an umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community. And there’s a few reasons why I tend to use the word queer, rather than that acronym - one being just that it’s a little less awkward to say out loud. Another one being that, listing out all of those letters - there’s always identities being left out, and so it creates sometimes preference or privilege within the whole spectrum. Another thing I like about the word queer is that it gives us one unifying word to speak about identities related to gender and sexuality that are seen as deviant or non normative, rather than being sort of like this cohort of very separate things jumbled together.
And then, finally, I really like, for me, the political implications of the word queer. So, to me, it represents not only an umbrella over each of those identities, but also some kind of wind under that umbrella that destabilizes that entire notion of static, rigid identities in the domains of gender and sexuality - even being like a construct that is really solid.
And, for me, I also really like that queer is a word that is being reclaimed. So, some might say that it has been reclaimed, but also, language is always active and always evolving. So I think it’s fair to say that this word is always actively being reclaimed. So, it originated a s a slur - being used against our community. Um, and so I really appreciate the power of a word being reclaimed, where a group of people that came before me, really, have said, you know, you can’t use this against me if I’m actually not ashamed of it. But, with that being said, especially for queer elders, this is a word that can have a lot of trauma tied to it. So it’s always important, especially if you’re not a member of the LGBTQ community, to check in with people about what their preferences are regarding this language. Because this - this is one of those words that can be, for someone like me, something that feels very um, liberating, um, but for someone else, it can feel triggering. So, yeah.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome back to the podcast!
Vee: Thanks.
Erica: Today, we’re gonna talk about queering - quote - in quotes queering —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: ‘Cause it’s not a term that most people use. So, can you tell us what does queering mean?
Vee: Yes. Okay, so I’m gonna talk - I’ve given a little bit of a disclaimer about the word queer already, but I’m gonna kind of reiterate that in this episode, um, to arrive at what I mean when I’m saying queering. So, queer is a word that has been reclaimed - and language is always contextual and is always evolving - so, you know, we can’t always say that a word just sort of has reached the point of having been reclaimed, and now it holds like no trauma anymore - like, queer folks, especially queer folks in older generations, sometimes have some really strong responses to the word queer because it comes from originally used as a noun - as a slur - against queer people. So against anyone who sort of didn’t - or doesn’t - fit the norms, in terms of binary gender and heteronormative expectations and stuff like that. But, when people use language violently against you, one way to respond to it and to sort of retain your dignity and power is to shift those words, and take something that’s lodged at you in a way to make you feel ashamed, and own it in a way that is not shameful. So, in that way, queer -the word queer being reclaimed can shift it from a noun, as a slur that’s being used against people - into an adjective that people use to describe themselves. So, I describe myself as queer and genderqueer, because I like that those identities have a political connotation, I like that they are reclamations, and I like that they hold in them connections to queer theory, which is about fluidity and destabilizing assumptions. And so, they have a dynamic aspect for me - um, even being an adjective they still have sort of like movement to them. Um, so queer becomes a particular identity that people could use, or even an umbrella term, where - you hear me - instead of saying LGBTQIA+ etc every time, I use queer as kind of a catchall adjective for people in general.
But queering is a third sort of way of understanding this word. Because queer theory, like I said, is so much about destabilizing and fluid identities and things like that, to queer as a verb means to do those things. So, to take understandings that are often assumed and taken as black and white - so binaries - especially like, for example the gender binary, um, but also even other dichotomies, and to question those, to name the political nature of those, to destabilize those. So, when we say to queer - or when we say queering - we mean to destabilize or find the fuzzy edges of things that we typically think of as solid and stable. So, I’ll give an example that comes from gender and sexuality, and then maybe something to expand it.
So, gender is a good example of a binary, where, in dominant understandings, there’s a black and white understanding of man and woman. And each one is defined in opposition to the other. So, whatever is womanly is whatever is not manly, right. So, if I, as someone who is, you know, who’s assigned a girl at birth, do things like, you know, play sports even, or burp, you know, then those things aren’t just described as like boyish, they could be described as not ladylike, right —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Vee: And that could mean the same thing. Any direction that you move in terms of gender is almost always being read in terms of moving toward or away from these 2 opposite poles. So, when you think about queering - or when I describe myself as genderqueer - you know, I’m thinking about a different way of understanding gender and imagining almost a world in which everything isn’t defined by these power hierarchies and this black and white discrete like pick a box kind of thing. And to queer the gender binary means to radically destabilize that assumption that, first of all men have more power, and secondly, anything that is not man is woman, and that you should really align - as many aspects of manhood in one body as possible, or as many aspects of womanhood in one body as possible. So, to queer, that binary is to destabilize it - find the funny edges of it, find different ways of kind of picturing and existing within it or away from it, or, you know, towards gender and away from gender in general, and all that.
But then similarly, we could think about it in terms of something like the therapist-client relationship. So, the therapist-client relationship we might not call a binary - like we aren’t exactly defined in opposition to each other. But it’s certainly a dichotomy, where there are discrete roles that people have been assigned, and there’s a power differential between the therapist and the client. So, to queer that relationship would mean to question the assumptions that come with like, the client is gonna be super vulnerable and share everything about themselves, the therapist is gonna be the blank slate and have no real personal vulnerability in that space. Queering might mean to find the fuzzy edges between those things, and destabilize what those roles are, in order to also destabilize the power differential that exists between client and therapist.
Erica: Mmm.
Vee: Other things with the client-therapist dichotomy might be the assumption that the therapist is the expert - has the expertise - and the client is in need, or needing help, or not able to do things for themselves - um or that the therapist is there to advise - be a - be the professional who kind of has it together and coaches them through life. To queer those assumptions might honor more of the client’s agency and the client’s - their own choices and them kind of knowing themselves better than anyone. And, honestly, some queer theorists question the helpfulness of defining identity categories at all. So even using language like therapist and client would maybe e questioned in terms of some queer theory or in terms of queering in general. So, queering can apply to a whole range of things that’s no longer just about gender and sexuality. And for us as therapists, it’s a call for us to think about what are the dichotomies that are assumed and that kind of define our work. And do we wanna keep everything from those, or are there some things that maybe causing harm, or are there some things that are just not really necessary. And what is the future that is possible if we make those things a little less steady?
Erica: Mmm. Yeah, so queering then sounds like it’s all about living more into the gray areas, and - rejecting may be a strong verb, but - ‘cause I think there’s a balance - or there’s some - there have to be some acknowledgement of like either ends of the spectrum. Because they still exist. You - like, they don’t - just because we don’t all live there —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And also, like the way that our world does like practically function —
Vee: Mmhmm –
Erica: To ignore the ends of the spectrum —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: Means that… I would question if you’re really living in the reality of the circumstances, and there’s like an idealistic way —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: That you would want things to function - and then like, the reality of how —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Life works.
Vee: Yeah. I think there’s a couple good points there. SO one is that, you know, even queer theory itself is [chuckles] the nature of it is that it’s difficult to define, because, by it’s very nature, it’s fluid - it’s constantly moving - it’s constantly changing. And different people, like even different queer theorists, have different understandings and different sort of main concepts within it. So, some queer theorists would be like, you know, kind of - let’s just kinda try to strip this away - but it’s never just an ignoring, right. Um, we kinda talked about this in the social justice episode - that to act as if power dynamics don’t exist doesn’t work against them [chuckles]. It does - does nothing to destabilize them, um and in fact upholds them.
Erica: Mmm.
Vee: So, similarly, to queer uh a dichotomy - or to queer an experience - or to queer anything - doesn’t mean to sort of just say like, this is a con - you know how some people will say like, this is a construct, as in like, just sort of flippantly being like, it doesn’t matter —
Erica: Yeah —
Vee: Or it’s nothing —
Erica: Yeah —
Vee: Or like, we could just strip it away. But like, queer theory would acknowledge like - for example, gender is a construct, but it’s a construct that defines every aspect of our existence. It’s a construct that we cannot escape, it’s a construct that like is - is part of every interaction, from the way that we speak, to the way that we dress, to the way that we move, to the activities that we take part in, to the way that we make - you know, that we create families, to the way that we relate, to the way that we show emotion. Like, gender, yes is a construct, but that doesn’t mean that it’s something we can just sort of set aside and then exist outside of it. It - it’s. A construct that defines everything. So, to queer gender doesn’t mean to be like, this isn’t here - like, what is gender - like, I just grew up without it.
[Erica chuckles]
Vee: You know, um, it - it takes active political existence to destabilize things that are assumed. And more often, in - in not queering, or even not politicizing our work, there’s dichotomies that are defining everything we do that we’re not even conscious of - or that we’re not even thinking actively about hardly ever.
Erica: Mmm.
Vee: And so, queering means being much more aware that those things are present, in order to make choices to see like, okay, knowing that [chuckles] this construct - or this binary, or this dichotomy - is operating in whatever the thing is that I’m doing or whatever the - the spaces that I’m in, am I going to uphold it, or am I gonna resist it?
Erica: Yeah
Vee: So, I was thinking about like a parallel I guess - or just a - I don’t know, this - this is making me think about something else that is on my mind just personally as a queer person. So, in trans culture, there’s this idea of passing - if you’re a trans woman, being read as a cis woman, or if you’re a trans man, being read as a cis man. Um, so passing is sort of like doing well enough at the gender things to be read as the gender that you are - at least the binary gender that you are. SO, it’s interesting to me that that language is like the same as what we use for passing a class - like literally doing a good job [chuckles] like the idea is to work hard enough and make it in terms of gender. Um, similarly, like, you know, passing as white like has similar connotations. And passing carries safety - like, there’s nothing wrong with people wanting to pass and - it carries just val - validation and stuff like that. But for me, as a genderqueer person, I am not interested in being read as my assigned gender most of the time, you know, other than for sometimes safety reasons. So what interests me is kind of radically failing and finding ways to fail at [chuckles] the gender that I was assigned - or to fail to be easily read in one distinct gender category. Um, and to do that - in a way is just me existing, but in another way, it takes a lot of conscious choices, like being very aware of how each word that I use, and vocal tone, and gesture, and piece of clothing, and all of that plays into the ways that I’m read. SO, I think that that is maybe an example that can trickle outward into that idea of not just like ignoring that constructs exist, but in sort of radically failing to fit into the boxes that are assigned, or radically failing to uphold the sort of 2-pole choices that are given to us in - in a lot of our different roles.
Erica: Hmm. I never really thought about it in terms of like how there’s like pass/fail grades. But, as you say it, I mean, it makes total sense. I was - as you were talking, I was trying to think of um if there are any other axes of oppression, where like the same concept may apply —
Vee: Mmm —
Erica: But we don’t necessarily call it like pass/fail.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica: There’s - in - okay, so [chuckles] within the construct of like bad bodies and good bodies —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: And healthism and how that applies to fatphobia…. We don’t say that like one body passes quote unquote and that another body like doesn’t —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Or like, it’s not like that language.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica: But, there is like the failing at doing what society wants you to do.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica:And so, by like - I don’t engage in diet culture - I’m not pursuing intentional weight loss —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Doesn’t mean that I don’t care about my health - I[m not - like I still go to my doctor - like, my doctor and I, in fact, now have a better relationship now that I’m not doing those things than when I was doing those things.
Vee: Yeah.
Erica: But, it’s an intentional - I’m - by society’s standard - and majority people - I am failing —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: At quote unquote being healthy —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Or taking care of me —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Even though the size of my body has nothing to do with my health.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica: But that is a soap box.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica: But that - that - that idea still applies that - even in the failing is such a political act, and such an act of resistance - and it can be super obvious —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: And it can be really quiet —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Depending on what - what it is.
Vee: Mmhmm.
Erica: As a therapist that is working in this queering paradigm —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: What is the relationship or intersection of queering and providing trauma-informed care?
Vee: Yeah - yeah. So, um, Yana mentioned, in one of Yana’s episodes, that trauma can sometimes be - I don’t remember exactly the analogy - but sometimes, it can be like being hit once by a giant bolder, or a giant truck or something, or it can be run over a million times by like tiny toy cars. And so, for me, trauma-informed care includes the trauma that comes from existing in marginalized positions. And - Alok and some other queer writers have - like queer artists and writers - have talked about how, sometimes the trauma of queer existence isn’t so much like direct threats or physical violence occurring against you - for some it is, but not always. But it’s the constant threat of what might happen -and that that anxiety - and that - that kind of need to be hyper aware can - can be traumatic in itself.
And so, the ways that power hierarchies define our existence are part of the trauma [chuckles] of people’s lives And so, like I talked about in the episode about the queer group, like, I don’t want to just give people coping skills for how to deal with the trauma of their existence. I want to also be building networks between people, and also be part of a collective effort to change the environments that we’re in so that they can be friendlier to our existences. Queering may be part of that. So, radically destabilizing the things that we take for granted, both personally - I’ve talked a lot about like personal acts in this, but I think there’s also systemic ways of understanding this, and more theoretical ways… but radically destabilizing those dichotomies that we take for granted is part of building the world that is not so violent to people we care about, and really to us. And so, to me, that’s part of trauma-informed care. You know, we have a responsibility when we see violence being done to not just be like, yes, I validate that that is horrible, here’s some breathing exercises [chuckles] or like let’s sing a song about it and go…
Erica: For new therapy professionals - whether they’re music therapy professionals or other modalities of therapy - what are some ways that they can start really investigating this within their relevant communities and identities —
Vee: Mmhmm —
Erica: Um, do you have any resources?
Vee: So, the Voices journal - music therapy - has an entire special issue devoted to queering - I think I mentioned it in another episode. And the editors are friends of mine, and they really emphasized the the queering issue not being strictly about LGBTQ identities, but being about like what we’ve talked about in this episode - queering as an act of radical destabilization. So that’s a good resource. There’s some good kind of like queering 101 books that I can reference, and then some maybe seminal articles.
Erica: Okay, great. So, I will put those in the episode notes and on our website, of course. On our website, you can learn more about the Snohomish County Music Project, you can look at the podcast transcripts, resources, etc. Our website is S as in Sam, C as in Cat, Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). You can also also follow us on all social media to get updates on all the things that are happening, particularly in this ever changing time of life. We’re on all major social media platforms @SCMusicProject. Next week, we will be talking with our mutual colleague, Tenesha Ross, about what it means to be a black music therapist. So I hope you will join us for that. Thank you, Vee, for chatting with us in this series - giving of your time and your emotional labor. I really appreciate you.
Vee: Yes, I appreciate you!
Erica: Uh, thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
Vee: Bye.
[Podcast outro music plays]