Ep. 009 | Being an Autistic Music Therapist

Today, we chat with guest, Yana Ramos, a music therapist, about their personal experience being an autistic music therapist.

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TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today we are talking about: Being an Autistic Music Therapist, with music therapist, Yana Ramos, as the start of our 4-part celebration of Autism Acceptance month.

Yana is a music therapist with Snohomish County Music Project, who practices disability affirming therapy with families and individuals. Yana is passionate about amplifying the lived experience of marginalized communities, especially those who are neurodivergent and disabled. During their clinical internship, Yana developed a program for strengthening positive attachment and child-facilitated communication among neurodiverse families. In their free time, Yana enjoys reading, creating, advocating, and cuddling with their service dog, Greta, who is also on the therapy team at the Music Project as quote unquote resident cutie.

Hi friends, just a brief message from Yana before we get started.

Yana: Thanks, Erica. I just want to note that in this episode and consequent episodes, I will be using the term autistic - autistic person, autistic folks. I personally use capital A Autistic for myself because autism - being Autistic is an identity for me. It’s not just this thing that was given to me as a diagnosis, or like this label that I want to separate from myself.

Often times you’ll hear like person with autism or stuff like that - ASD - and the - the overwhelming consensus from the autistic community at large is that we choose to claim being autistic as its own uh cultural identity. And that is why I, and the majority of the community, choose to identify in this way. Uh, that also goes for disabled - and some other disabilities choose to identify in this way as well. It is up to individual preference, but for me and - in these episodes - and for a lot of folks, this is how we choose to identify. So… Thank you.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: I’m so excited to have you hear today, Yana, to talk with us about all the things you know - all things neurodiversity and autism.

Yana: Yay —

Erica: Um, so just to start off with - for beyond what I just shared about you, can you tell us a little bit about like, like maybe what school you went to, what particular type of training you have, and more about the type of work that you do?

Yana: Sure! So, I got the bulk of my training from Marylhurst University, which sadly was, um, a school in Oregon. Uh, then I transferred to Pacific University, uh also in Oregon. And I ground my work in the neurodiversity paradigm, as well as, um, everything I do is from the framework of disability justice, which is sort of, um, a different iteration of social justice. Um, and I can talk more about that later.

But basically what I do is - as you mentioned, I try to amplify, um, the lived experience of whoever I’m in the therapy space with. And, as one of our therapists previously mentioned, we bring all of ourselves into therapy, and I want to make sure that the identities of the clients I work with - um, the identities that they come with are being celebrated and affirmed… um, especially the clients that are neurodivergent. Yeah!

Erica: Okay! Awesome. Neurodivergent - so you’ve used this word a couple of times —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: For those that maybe don’t know what it is, can you give, like, a real brief definition of what like neurodivergent means?

Yana: Yeah. So, I’ll start I guess with quick definition of neurodiversity —

Erica: Okay —

Yana: Um, that’s where it comes from. So, basically, neurodiversity asserts that there are - like everyone has a unique neurology, and we don’t want to prioritize, like say that one type of neurology is quote unquote better than any other. So this is encompassing of folks who are autistic, folks who um have ADHD, folks who are dyslexic - there are other neurologic conditions that can sometimes consider themselves neurodivergent, uh and sometimes not - it depends on also the person. But neurodiversity -that paradigm says that every brain matters. And so being neurodivergent means that we have brains that are just different from like the dominant neurology.

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: Um, and - but that - that’s not like a bad thing. And so, from the neurodiversity paradigm - as a therapist, like, I don’t work with folks to be like, let’s address this thing to - to fix the things that are going on in your - with your wiring. Um, because the neurodiversity paradigm comes from the social model of disability, which just briefly, it says that um, there are things that enable and disable everyone. And often times, those things come from society - so like, I’m blind, which means that my eyes don’t work the way that other people’s do, which I consider a disability, but that’s also because society is set up for folks who are sighted.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Yana: So like… Ooh, a good example would be - um, I was on an Amtrak train a f - a few months ago, and all of the things in the bath - this is really random [chuckles] - all the things in the bathroom, from toilet paper to, like, the flush button thing, were labeled in Braille. And it - it occurred to me that like, are these things always labeled and I just don’t know it?

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: SO, because so much is labeled in print for folks who can see, that puts folks who are blind at a disadvantage - that is the disabling factor.

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: But when things are labeled, it enables us to be able to get the same information - have the same access, or - So, the social model of disability just says that the disabling conditions also stem from the way that the world around us - the - the environment is set up.

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: So yeah, within that, the - the neurodiversity paradigm says that all of our brains are different, and we can - we can create spaces where all of our brains are celebrated and not sort of pathologized into changing.

Erica: Absolutely. So when we - we use the w - term in this conversation neurodivergent, we’re talking about a group of people —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: That have any type of neurology —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: That differs from the dominant neurology.

Yana: Yes.

Erica: Okay, awesome. And we’re gonna talk about - I’m not ignoring anything you just said —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: But also, we are gonna talk about much more in depth about that in the next episode —

Yana: Totally —

Erica: So I don’t wanna give too much away for our listeners - that’s like an extra sneak peak into next week’s episode.

Yana: Yes.

Erica: Get ready, we’re gonna talk about the neurodiversity paradigm at length [chuckles]

Yana: Stay tuned. I have more words.

Erica: [Chuckles] Awesome. So… how do - how does your disabled identity and your autistic identity - um, how do they inform your practice as a clinician?

Yana: Yeah, that’s a - that’s a good question.

[Erica and Yana laugh]

Yana: You and your hard hitting questions on this podcast. So, when I started um music therapy, the only identity that I could activate at that time was - like, it’s very obvious that - not in a bad way, but it’s just it’s obvious that I’m blind. Um —

Erica: Greta’s not invisible [chuckles]

Yana: [Laughs] Yes, um, my - my guide dog is very visible. Uh, even when she’s not around, she leaves little fluffy reminders. But um, so that, in itself, like it’s a visible disability that I have um… grown up, you know, very openly being out and about and sharing with… whoever comes in contact with me pretty much.

Erica: Mmhmm —

Yana: My Autistic identity was slightly different to that - like, obviously I grew up as Autistic - and um, I’m gonna make a long story short - actually short this time. [chuckles]

[Erica chuckles]

Yana: I - I didn’t get the clinical confirmation of… that I was Autistic until already I was studying music therapy.

Erica: Oh, really?

Yana: Yeah. That… maybe less visible, um, part of my disabled identity was also just less known —

Erica: Mmm —

Yana: To other people. Um… for various reasons, but um, but now that I can - now that I’m - now that I’m comfortable… in sharing that - in being open with my Autistic identity and - and my, um, identity as a Blind person… because I have lived the life I live, with the experiences I’ve had - in a disabled body and in a world that is not set up for m - someone like me and someone with, you know, just - it’s not set up for disabled folks —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Yana: Um, I know how important, on so many levels, it is to… be able to bring all of who you are into the therapy space - and how all of who you are deserves to be affirmed and celebrated. And so, when - even if I’m not working with someone who’s, like openly disabled or whatever, like, I wanna make sure that I am able to hold space for all of who they are.

Erica: What’s your experience like being a professional and working in context outside of our facility —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: Or outside of like our staff?

Yana: Mmhmm… Um, that’s… how has my experience been?

[Erica laughs]

Yana: I mean, other than - here’s a business card that’s not Brailled… Um… hmm…

Erica: I mean, you must have interactions with teachers - you must have interactions with - with the clients —

Yana: Yeah —

Erica: That are engaging with you outside of our particular facility —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: Because we do so much community work, what are those experiences like? How do you bring your full and authentic self —

Yana: Mmm —

Erica: Into those spaces, and then what is the reaction or the response you’re receiving —

Yana: Mmm —

Erica: From other professionals or from clients?

Yana: Yeah, so, I think, Um… that’s a very interesting question because there are ways that I am open… about, like things that I need to do to be present in spaces. Like, I will openly tim, um to regulate and stuff like that, but, like, I don’t… I - I’m not like, hi! I’m Yana - I’m Blind and Autistic and all these other things, let’s, you know, let’s chat. [Laughing] Um…

Erica: Sure. That’s fair.

Yana: So… uh, I don’t know how - hmm… Okay, restart… SO I think that, um, because I - I don’t um… because I’m open with, like doing the things I need to to stay present in spaces, um… that… like, I don’t… um - hold on. So I think, because I do things to keep myself present, be that stimming or like whatever I need to do, I think there are ways in which my identities express themselves without me having to say… the things - you know, without having to be —

Erica: Mmm —

Yana: Hi I’m Yana - I’m Blind and Autistic - blah blah blah. Um, but in other ways, I think that because the world is the world, and in some ways, ableism is so pervasive in the world, um, I think that - because I have a disability that is easier to notice, than - than something else - like, I come with a guide dog so it’s obvious that I’m blind - I think sometimes things that that I - well, I don’t think, I know sometimes just in - in my life just overall and - and I think sometimes n other spaces —

Erica: So —

Yana: Ways that - like because I’m blind, there are things that people just like take… like altogether. Like they don’t - people don’t often recognize, or like wonder if there’s something else that - like another identity that I have that’s not just - that’s not just Yana’s Blind. So, I think because um because I have - because I have a disability that is more visible than - than another one, I think sometimes there are ways my Autistic identity can get erased. Maybe not intentionally, but because - because people assume things about disabled folks whose bodies are visibly disabled - sometimes people assume things because I have a - a disability that’s like quote unquote less visible than my other, I think there’s like, in some ways a degree of protection or privilege that comes with - it sounds weird to say that, but that comes with being more visibly disabled. Because, like when you have an invisible disability, like people sometimes either don’t believe you, or like - say like, oh you’re not disabled blah blah blah - like you’re fine. And I think, in some ways, I’ve experienced a kind of privilege - which which in itself is still like obvious oppression and - and all that. Like because… like people don’t have to work so hard to wonder like, what’s going on, you know?

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: Um, like it’s sort of given me -like I can sort of like be open about my autism without like having to justify it - having to explain it - because I’m also blind.

Erica: Mmm —

Yana: And so… yeah, that’s…

Erica: That’s a really good point, Yana.

Yana: Yeah.

Erica: That’s a really good point. When I’m scheduling - because one of my roles at our organization is to do all the in takes —

Yana: Mmm —

Erica: For new clients in terms of like their basic administrative paperwork and what not. I often am scheduling first time appointments or consultations, and it is part of my regular practice to disclose that Greta is with you because people have varying feelings —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: And allergies to dogs. And - but I do not disclose, generally, that you are autistic, unless you and I have already had a conversation about it —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: Uh, for that particular family or client. What - what is the - what are the factors that you are considering in whether to - whether it’d be helpful to disclose or not disclose to a client or a group or a family about your autism diagnosis - particularly because - it’s invisible comparative —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: To your blindness?

Yana: Yeah. Um, during my internship, my special project was, as you mentioned, working with th families that include neurodiverse people - particularly like children - um, at the start of that, I was like - and this goes back to, like just life in general is pervaded by like ableism and other uh systems of oppression - but like, I was afraid that people would be less willing to give me a chance as a therapist if, on top of being Blind and having a guide dog in the space, like, if they knew right off the bat that I was also Autistic, and - and that was just like internalized ableism within myself, just from [chuckles] existing.

Um, but - like I’ve had experiences where I’d been working with someone and I - I hadn’t disclosed at first that I was also Autistic, and then there was a - there was a time when this person had asked me something - like wanted me to share my experience with something, um, that - that they had experienced because like they knew that I was blind. Like, they were like oh, like do you share this experience that I have also experienced, you know? And then, within that, because this person also has uh an autism diagnosis, I was able to - and - and they disclosed that to me by themselves, I was able to say, like I share this diagnosis. Like, we have - like I have experienced these other things because we - we have similar experiences.

So I think, for me, it’s like - like now, I’m open about that part of myself. I know it’s helpful to be in relationship - like in a client-therapist relationship or what have you - and be able to know some things that are shared, like some identities that are shared, because it makes it easier - it can make it easier to e comfortable - and to be comfortable in activating your own identity like, when maybe you know that it’s shared with the person who’s in this supposed position of power. SO I think now… I’ve grown from like ahh! Will people take me seriously because of all these things? TO like, I deserve to be taken seriously [chuckles] um —

Erica: Absolutely —

Yana: Like, because my experience is not the same as someone else’s experience, but I can come - I can bring that experience, and that informs, you know, what we do in relation to each other. Yea!

Erica: I really love that —

Yana: Yay —

Erica: I really love that answer. I particularly love the… I love how your openness and self-belief in your own worth and deservingness as just a person —

Yana: Mmm —

Erica: To be able to be authentically yourself and to be taken seriously —

Yana: Mmm —

Erica: Both by clients and by other community members —

Yana: Mmhmm —

Erica: Translates to clients and families that come into your space feeling more comfortable - and then also feeling like they can n actually engage as their full authentic selves —

Yana: Yeah —

Erica: Which, as you had said, ties back into dismantling ableism and, um probably ties into trauma-informed care —

Yana: Yeah, totally —

Erica: And a whole bunch of other tenets that our particular nonprofit uh works from.

Yana: Mmhmm.

Erica: Yeah. Alright, well we are out of ice. Thank you so much for sharing with me today - and with us.

Yana: Mmhmm!

Erica: Um, Yana will be here all month —

[Yana laughs]

erica: So do not worry, there’s more Yana to come.

Yana: [Chuckling] As I said, stay tuned, I have words.

Erica: [Chuckles] Um, Yana do you have any resources that you would wanna share, maybe about disability studies or about autism - or for anyone that’s listening, if they would like to dive more into what it means to have a disability identity?

Yana: I have many resources that I will give to Erica. But one of the biggest resources I can say right now, is um listen to the disabled folks in your world. The lived experience of being in a disabled body or having like a brain that’s - one of my clients said differently-wired, those experiences matter. And share - and, uh, the community - the disabled and neurodivergent community that have had like the courage to share those experiences matters. So, like I will share resources with Erica, but that’s the biggest one I can say its just - is seek out those voices, because there are many of us, uh we’re just not often listened to.

Erica: Mmm.

Yana: So - please do. [Chuckles]

Erica: Wholeheartedly agree. And I will - I will collect the resources from Yana later. As Yana said, the resources are available in our episode notes and also on our website. Uh, you can find all the things about the podcast on our website, which is S, as in Sam - C, as in Cat - Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on social media - on all the platforms, at SCMusicProject. We do provide a full transcript of every episode of this podcast, and that is available on our website.

And next week, Yana will be back, and we will be talking about - or giving an introduction to the neurodiversity paradigm. Yana has briefly explained to us what that looks like, and what the implications of that are, but we are going to to do a little bit more of a deep dive into that particular topic. Um, thank you again, Yana, so much for sharing about your personal story and how that impacts your world and and the music therapy profession. Thank you, listeners, for listening, and we will talk to you next time.

Yana: Thanks friends, byeee!

[Podcast outro music plays]