Ep. 008 | Storytelling in Music Therapy

Today, we chat with returning guest, Colby Cumine, a board-certified music therapist, about the importance of storytelling in music therapy.

LEARN MORE

Play Therapy by V. Axline | Book

Chapters 11 & 12 of The Body Keeps the Score by B. van der Kolk | Book

The Trauma Therapist: Contemplative Psychotherapy Episode #424 by Guy McPherson | Podcast

The Trauma Therapist: The Power & Passion of a Survivor Episode #425 by Guy McPherson | Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about: Storytelling in Music Therapy, with board certified music therapist, Colby Cumine.

If you have not yet met Colby, Colby is a board- certified music therapist, working primarily with elementary children experiencing trauma. With over 2 years of experience, his clinical practice includes over 500 kids, ranging from infancy through middle school, in both group and individual settings at 8 different schools. He uses a social justice orientation and a trauma-informed lens while working with clients from a range of different backgrounds and abilities, always focusing on client strengths, and providing them with as much power and agency as possible in therapeutic settings.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome, thank you for coming back - for joining us today is Colby’s 4th time on the podcast.

Colby: Yeah!

Erica: Colby is one of my personal friends, in addition to being a colleague. And, I already know that storytelling is super important to you —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: I know that you love telling stories.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: Um, why do you love storytelling? What draws you to stories?

Colby: Storytelling is really, really awesome, ‘cause I feel like it is such a core part of humanity itself. I feel like, historically, all the way back to like paintings on walls by cave men and aural traditions passed down from generation to generation, myths and legends are a part of every single person group in history as well. Um, so, storytelling is just a central part of like the human experience. The way like we remember things - and experience things and communicate things all happen in some sort of story framework. Um, so that’s part of why I really love it personally, as well as I’m just trying to capture that professionally.

Erica: Mmm. So how do you use storytelling in a therapeutic environment?

Colby: Yeah. There are a few different possible ways. Um, I think it’s also important to know, like with the trauma work that I do, the way that trauma can affect our personal stories, is that it’s a - a disrupter - in so many different ways - and that the way we remember things is kind of a flowing story. The way our timelines are something we can, you know, get certain details from, but we can - know have the essence of stories from our past.

But the way traumas experienced and relived is not one cohesive chain of events. It’s small, glaring details that kinda  come in like a needle and just kinda jag  into, uh, everyday existence. So it can be… the smell of an abuser that just [snaps fingers] pops in and throws you completely out of sync with the current story you’re living - your current season of life. And so, trying to kind of help reshape or reintegrate those stories is a really important thing.

And there are lot - a lot of different things that can be done. Some of them involve uh telling alternate versions of the story. Once you’re able to kind of fully accept and experience what has happened in the past, being able to create alternate versions that, you know, better suit your continued existence —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Of what you wish would’ve happened or what you wished you could’ve done when you were feeling so helpless and powerless in that situation. Um, other ways that can help you like fully understand the story and integrate it into your like larger narrative - of being like, okay, this happened, but in the past it was terrifying, and mortifying, and all the other words or descriptions that might fit a person’s experience… but that also happened back then. And I am here now. Um, and that’s a great starting point to at least being able to live life, and then work into deep rev - of how that past event has rippled out to affect you currently.

Erica: Mmm. Are there certain um activities that you would do in a therapy session that encourage storytelling —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: That to help with the processing or whatever the client is doing in their session?

Colby: Yeah. So some - a lot of like mainstream music therapy techniques would include like lyric analysis - stories are also all songs. Um, singers and songwriters have been telling their stories - and… um one of the cool thing about stories is that it helps us remember that we’re not alone - the experiences that we go through um can be shared by our favorite singers and songwriters, and a lot of times, that’s what makes them our favorite singers and songwriters —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: That we connect personally on those levels. And so… kind of looking at the lyrics of a client’s favorite song, or a song brought in by a therapist - um, that they know kinda what questions to ask to try and get to some of these certain themes and ideas can be a really powerful tool.

Um, additionally, like songwriting, uh is, you know, creating and crafting your own story, um, in a musical lens, which can help, you know, just kinda come to accept all the things - making a song about what did happen, or what you wished happened, or what you’re feeling about the things… currently that have happened - um, are always of kinda coming to acceptance and coping, and being able to start to move forward, and all those uh are deeply tied to storytelling.

Erica: Mmm. Wow.

[Colby and Erica chuckle]

Erica: So, those were some generalized - er not generalized, those were some general examples —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Of how music therapists generally use music —

Colby: Yeah, mmhmm —

Erica: In a storytelling manner. Are there any, um, activities that you do specifically —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: That have - that are connected to storytelling?

Colby: Mmhmm. So, I actually use a lot of play therapy, um, integrated —

Erica: What’s play therapy?

Colby: It’s… like having —

Erica: Is it what it sounds like?

Colby: It’s exactly what it sounds like. [Chuckles]

Erica: Okay, great. Just making sure.

Colby: The way music therapy is using music as the tool to help therapeutic transformation, play therapy uses play, which is like the native language of children, to help encourage transformation. Um, so —

Erica: Okay, we’re all on the same page now.

Colby: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Um… So I - puppet play is what comes up pretty often, both in like textbooks and also that I personally use and have seen kids be really responsive to. Um, being able to like project the experiences onto those… kind of… uh person-esque - not even full people - like animals and things like that - they can project things onto them and have - act out, you know, past traumas or ways they wish things could’ve gone differently.

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Or even just entirely different worlds that they can develop, and then use that as metaphors or ways to kind of express the emotions they’re feeling.I have one kid right now, who has this like running narrative where I’m their older brother, and they’re playing the younger sister. And in that, there’s so much like the sister getting into trouble, and I have to go like help them, which is like representative of them getting into trouble and having adults come to like save them or rescue them or, like, stop them.

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Um, which is seeking that attention - and that fear of being alone has been expressed explicitly at this point —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Of, like… the biggest thing is I  - I - kinda paraphrasing here - I act out because I’m scared of people… leaving me alone. SO being able to have those breakthroughs even removed from the client having to say things personally —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Like sometimes people or kids aren’t ready for that level of vulnerability, to like personalize it and own it in that way.

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: But doing it via a story angle, be it, you know, songs or the toys or with puppets, like allows you to kinda remove that and still get at the important stuff —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Um without, you know, there being a whole like crying moment of realization that… —

Erica: Mmm.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, so… wow. So how does - do you do musical play then —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Within that context —?

Colby: Mmm —

Erica: Or how does the music —

Colby: Music —

Erica: Support or how is it a tool in that situation?

Colby: Yeah. So depending on who I’m going with, there’s always going to be some sort of musical entrance and exit - some ritual and routine of a hello song and goodbye song - um, that’s just helps mark transitions and starts to the sessions. Um, other times there’s like, you know, musically reflecting what clients are doing with their um puppets. Sometimes clients choose songs to be like backdrops to a scene they’re playing. I had one kid that like specifically chose to like listen to Justin Bieber’s What Do You Mean, and then they played out a situation where they were kinda confused by getting conflicting signals and answers from parents.

Erica: Ohhh.

Colby: So there’s like - there’s so much flexibility in the way music can interact with a certain situation —

Erica: Absolutely —

Colby: Um, that sometimes, you know, it’s just there as bookends to create structure - or remind you know people this is therapy time, and we’ve div -dove in and now we can dive back out. Other ways - it can like really directly affect the play, or help provide like the sense of safety for a kid or person to begin to unravel or dive into those stories that they are probably very scared to tell.

Erica: Mmm… That - yeah - that - I just - sometimes when I - when we have conversations outside of this context —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Uh, you come back from doing therapy, and I - you’ll tell me something about how your day went, and… I so admire - I mean, I admire you, I admire all of the music therapists —

Colby: [Chuckles] Thanks —

Erica: That I work with —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Um, because music just has such a unique access —

Colby: Uh huh —

Erica: To what is happening, and then, um… I just so respect like all of the training and education and you have to know - to be able to like recognize that, and then know and know how to help that child - or work with that child - or just listen to that child.

Colby: [Makes an affirming sound]

Erica: because, not always does a therapist need to be fixing things —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: But just being like a safe, secure place to be —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Is so important.

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And when we’re telling stories, even if we’re telling them in a dissociated way —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: It’s still hard - it can be hard —

Colby: Yeah –

Erica: To tell certain stories. Um —

Colby: Mmhmm. Yeah, there’s still power and impact in being able to go through things even if they aren’t directly tied to you —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: And that’s something that, even like today, I’m still a pretty young therapist, and so, um, there are a lot of the ways where - the ways therapy’s been like portrayed in like media and, and idealized to be to be like, oh you sit down, you have a box of tissues and you, you know, hash out your parental issues —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: And you’ll be fine - everything will be all better after that.

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: That’s [chuckles] absolutely not how it goes —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: At all. Um, and sometimes the most powerful, transformative work happens when like you don’t even realize it. Um, and… like, there’s no major like cry on the couch moment that happens with, you know, what’s going on - you just… you just can kinda see the changes gradually  take shape, and you might not even notice them until like you do an assessment or you get some sort of feedback.

Um, like there was one kid I was seeing like last year, who, at this point, has mainstreamed outa the behavior program into just general education classrooms, um, which is a huge deal, and I didn’t [chuckles] know a hundred percent if the work we were doing was like… truly making a big impact - if he was just kinda coming here to play. But he was playing through things that seemed to reflect… issues I knew he was having —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Umm… But there was never like any moment where he like personalized it and was like, oh yeah, this is like how it relates to me - and like had these big insights. It was a lot more of kinda going through the play until suddenly he was like um - wasn’t asking to play anymore - he was like I wanna do something different —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: I want to listen to music or play or tell stories in this mode instead, and adapting and shifting with that - has eventually allowed him to, you know, survive and prosper outside of um what the system thinks he needs.

Erica: That’s so very cool.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: I love that.

Colby: I love it. I love it too!

Erica: I love stories stories. [Chuckles]

[Colby laughs]

Erica: I love music therapy, I love stories!

Colby: So many things!

Erica: I love everything. Awesome. Um, so… is there a direction that you are wanting storytelling to go? Is there something you’re - what’s on the horizon in terms of like how could we be using storytelling more effectively in therapy, um, is there a marriage between like play therapy and storytelling and music therapy?

Colby: … Yes…? That’s a lot of big questions ‘cause I —

Erica: I only ask big questions. [Laughs]

Colby: [Laughs] I don’t wanna like get to ahead of myself. I’ve been only kinda trying to incorporate these from practices and ideologies for a year and a half-is now.

Erica: Okay.

Colby: But, it’d be really great to see like in music therapy, more use of non-music modalities and understanding, like, um - even if we didn’t get proper like licensure or training on this certain thing, um —

Erica: Just to clarify, if you’re not - f you’re listening and don’t know, music therapy is recognized federally —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But in Washington State, it is not yet a licensed practice - for a bunch of very boring reasons. But it is licensed in Oregon, California, and a bunch of other states.

Colby: Yeah. Well maybe it’s licensed here by the time this podcast comes out.

Erica: N - I - I r - I don’t think in the time that we’re recording this to when it’s airing that it’s licensed, but —

Colby: [Chuckles] Yeah.

Erica: But that’s what we’re - that’s what Colby’s referring to.

Colby: Yeah. Or even like - ‘cause other therapies have certain licensure or requirements —

Erica: Totally —

Colby: To like get the specific initials behind your name —

Erica: Totally —

Colby: Um, even if you don’t have the specific trainings for that - like, reading books and incorporating these things are still valuable. You know obviously as long as you’re evaluating what your scope of practice can be, and making ethical decisions, and not being like - yeah, I can do art therapy even though I’m not an artist.

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: Like, obviously there are some areas within that that are important to be self critical. Um, but it’s also important to be flexible and accepting of new things that you encounter. It’s what makes a lot of great therapists great. They continue to learn and grow their practice —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: Um, not in the sense of growing practice client number wise, but like, learning and growing yourself and your understanding of the things and the people you’re working with. And being able to like understand - there’s been a huge movement between shifting from pure talk therapy to lots of things involving the body - being in the body - yoga, mindfulness practices um fr trauma-specific treatment. And so, in the same way, like it’s important for a music therapist to be able to say like… hey, yeah, music is our bread and butter and what we’re trained in, and no-one can use it quite like us —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: At the same time, like, there are very valuable parts to other therapies that might play to different strengths that we have —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: And, We owe it to the client to be able to - either recommend them to we think - what modality they would be best - or incorporate what works best with them.

Erica: Absolutely, yeah. Um… Speaking of licensure, when I was talking —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: To our public officials, a lot of them are asking questions like - okay, so you want licensure of music therapy —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Does that mean you want, like, quote unquote control over the whole use of music? That is absolutely not true.

Colby: Yeah, no.

Erica: That music therapists own music, —

Colby: No —

Erica: And we’re the only ones - or, you’re the only ones that can quote unquote apply music. So, I like this idea of borrowing —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: From other disciplines. It is real - I think it is to anyone’s credit that learns more about other disciplines in other professions —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And then incorporates or takes back to their practice —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Parts of that. ‘Cause everybody… is really knowledgable about the things that they are passionate about, or things that they spend a lot of time working on —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But that doesn’t mean that your neighbor, or the person next to you, or in the building over. Doesn’t know —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: What they’re doing, it just means they do it differently.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: And I th - wonder what the world would be like if more therapists and educators talked to each other and listened more —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: To the other people, than if we less trying to win arguments —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Or say that our way is the only way - or any iteration and variation of those phrases.

Colby: Yeah. I think something that could be possibly even more impactful is talking to clients, or survivors, or people who’ve gone through therapy processes of different modalities, and being able to hear what their experiences were like, so that - I mean, it’s one thing to talk to like the people who think about it and are on one side of the treatment, but on the other side is what we’re actually hoping - hoping to have a major change on —

Erica: Absolutely —

Colby: Not that we don’t also get changed and affected by it - with —

Erica: Yes. Yes —

Colby: It’s always a give and take. I think, yeah, both listening to folks with different ideas than you, no matter where they come from - if they have a PhD or if they just finished, you know —

Erica: College —

Colby: A therapy session —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: Or if they’re interns —

Erica: Oh yeah —

Colby: Or people in school that have cool new ideas. Like, it’s - everyone can be brilliant and spark something new inside of you. Uh… that rhymed.

Erica: Yeah, wow.

Colby: Wow.

Erica: Yeah, listening is so important. And I - it’s one of my soap boxes is —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: I will die on the hill of listen more than you talk.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: And listen to your - to people that have done therapy —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Especially if you are trying to work with any sort of marginalized community or identities —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Listen more than you talk, and I wonder what you will learn. And listening is kinda the whole thing to storytelling. Storytelling - there is a - a therap - a cathartic therapeutic aspect —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Of you being the one that’s telling the story.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: When I go home and tell my mom or my sister about like what happened during my day, like —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: It’s in part for me… But —

Colby: Yeah. Equally important is having someone listen —

Erica: Yes —

Colby: Hear your story —

Erica: Yes —

Colby: ‘Cause if you just say it to the aether - not actually all the [chuckles] helpful —

Erica: Yes —

Colby: Or feels all that great.

Erica: Just me walk around my apartment talking about myself. [Chuckles]

Colby: Yeah. [Laughs]

Erica: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for talking with us about storytelling.

Colby: Yeah, absolutely my pleasure!

Erica: I think it’s abundantly clear that w’re so both on board —

Colby: Yup —

Erica: With telling stories. And listening.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: Listen listen listen.

Colby: This is the story and people are gonna listen - this is the pull. [Chuckles}

Erica: That is the code. Listen to the - listen to stories.

Um, do you hav any resources for our listeners?

Colby: Yeah. Um, so the podcast I mentioned before called the TraumaTherapist, hosted by Guy McFierson. Um, some of the more recent episodes talk about uh listening to survivors, as well as some of the powers of, um, stories and kinda off the beaten path forms of therapy. There’s episode 424, with Miles Neale, um on contemplative psychotherapy - was very cool in the way that he uses mythos and mythology sometimes in his therapeutic work. Um, as well as episode 425, with Cissy White, who is a trauma survivor - and now a pretty loud and powerful voice within the field. Um, she - she has some really cool perspective in like that whole journey and process. So definitely those episodes —

Erica: Okay.

Colby: Um, and then, there are lots of cool books on play therapy - recommend. Um, stuff both non directive and directive. Um, I can - the OG book is in my laptop bag, I can get it out —

Erica: That’s okay. I’ll get it from Colby later. So if you would like to check out uh the Trauma Therapist –

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Or any of the other resources, Colby will help me make those links available on our website.

Our website is S, as in Sam - C, as in Cat - Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). Go over to the podcast page, and you’ll find all the episode notes, a transcript of the podcast episode —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Um, and then if you have any questions, um you - that’s the resource. GO there. If you would like to learn more about music therapy or the Snohomish County Music Project, we are on all social media, at SCMusicProject.

Um, next week, we will start - for the month of April a series about neurodiversity uh with Yana Ramos. They are a music therapist here on staff as well, and the first episode I think is gonna be really interesting.

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: It is Being an Autistic Music Therapist.

So, thank you, Colby, again so much for talking with us!

Colby: My pleasure. Can’t wait to here Yana’s takes on all these —

Erica: It’s gonna be great —

Colby: All these important things, yeah —

Erica: I’m really excited about it. Uh, thank you, listeners, for listening. Um, that’s like the keyword of this whole episode.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: And we will talk to you next time.

Colby: Bye, everyone!

[Podcast outro music plays]