Ep. 007 | Music Therapy & the Relationships that Matter

Today, we chat with guest, Sam Burns, a board-certified music therapist, about how music therapy can support healthy early childhood development.

LEARN MORE

Music Therapy with Families by S. Lindahl and G. Thompson | Book

An Overview of Attachment Theory from Community Pediatric Review | Online Article

Serve & Return: Positive child-caregiver interactions build strong brains from Alberta Family Wellness Initiative | Online Article

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about: Music Therapy and the Relationships that Matter, with board certified music therapist, Sam Burns.

Sam is a board-certified music therapist working with young children and families in transition; she specializes in creating a space for healthy relationship building between parents and their children. Sam approaches music therapy with a trauma-informed, systemic lens. In her free time, you’ll find her outside, whether it be biking, hiking, or kayaking throughout the year.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome, Sam, to the podcast!

Sam: Hey, Erica! Glad to be here!

Erica: We’re so glad you’re here. Sam - is - li - listeners, if this is your first time meeting Sam, Sam is the - my, like, expert - I ask her all the things about parent-child bonding —

[Sam chuckles]

Erica: And how like, how nursery rhymes impact things, and it - it’s a great time. So, I’m really excited for you to share everything that you know with us!

So, in relationship bonding, the clinical word for this is attachment —

Sam: Yes.

Erica: Um, and so moving forward, listeners, is if we say the word attachment, we’re just talking about relationships that are built between children and parents or other types of caregivers —

Sam: Yes —

Erica: Grandparents, aunts, uncles, babysitters, teachers… anybody that’s giving care in a child’s life…

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: So, what is attachment? Like, how do you uh maybe define it from a clinical lens - and then, are there different kinds of attachment because there are different kinds of relationships?

Sam: Yeah, so, attachment - I view it pretty much is just the bond between one person, so like, say, the child, to the caregiver - or one person to the other person —

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: Such as… any kind of relationship. There are different types of attachments. Attachment theory itself - there was Bowlby and Ainsworth that came up with 3 distinct attachment types, depending upon how responsive caregivers were in a child’s early years. And then, I think it was only in the 1980s there was a 4th attachment type that was recognized.

Basically, there’s a secure attachment type, where you have a parent - caregiver who is very responsive to a child. The child cries, the caregiver comes in to soothe the child - the child learns that the world is safe - it can be trusted. Children who are ambivalently attached, um, they tend to be more suspicious of strangers. They are considerably more distressed when they’re apart from their caregiver, mores than what you would typically see, and they’re not necessarily reassured or comforted when the parent comes back.

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: So there’s kind of some inconsistencies. And then, there is an avoidant attachment type. This is where the children are avoiding of the parents or caregivers - this avoidance typically happens after a period of absence, so they don’t know the caregiver to be consistent - they don’t know the caregiver to be somebody that will be there —

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: When they need them. And then, finally, there is the disorganized attachment type. This one’s a mixture of [sighs] kind of avoidant behavior or resistance. This is what you would typically see in cases of like trauma with abuse and neglect. They don’t necessarily act differently between caregiver and stranger. That was a crash course on —

Erica: Crash course on attachment —

Sam: On attachment. [Laughs]

Erica: Great, thank you. How do early childhood relationships impact child throughout the course of their life?

Sam: Yes.

Erica: That’s a broad question.

Sam: Very majorly, in the fact that your early life experiences - this is how you’re learning and gaining information about the world. Can people be trusted.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: Can our basic needs be met. And then with that, you have like the question of can I trust others in intimate relationships as adults. Yeah. [Laughs]

Erica: Okay. And so then, how does your work as a music therapist - how are you supporting - either established secure relationsh - secure attachment, or how are you promoting secure attachments?

Sam: Yeah - and so with secure attachment, it’s really that responsiveness, as far as creating experiences for the child to be able to express, and then have the parent reflect back, and actively respond and attune to the child.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: Um, and so you can do that in music itself. Um, we’re very musical beings —

Erica: Yeah —

Sam: Um, such as imitating vocalizations in a child - or you can do - as far as, like, in the session itself?

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: You can do like a repeat after me kind of thing, with having an instrument between the parent and the child. And so that way there’s information - there’s that serve and return between the two of them that is practicing that responsiveness —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: And then actively encouraging the parent to really… get down on the child’s level and to, in the moment, play and respond and take parts of what the child is doing and incorporate it into what they’re doing.

Erica: Okay. SO, you’re talking about vocalizations and the serve and return, like a kind of a call and response ——

Sam: Yes —

Erica: Type of activity —

Sam: Yeah!

Erica: So those are like some basics. Like, is there - like I think of nursery rhymes a lot—

Sam: Yes!

Erica: Like When I think of like - that’s how - they’re - they —

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: We think of them as like these silly songs that we do - from like an adult perspective —

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: Because we would - certainly we would never sing them to like our peers or etc —

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: But, it’s a very like real part of a child’s development —

Sam It is!

Erica: And, even parents or caregivers that would claim they’re quote unquote tone deaf… still do like Patty Cake… still sing like Row Row Row Your Boat - like basic things - Humpty Dumpty —

Sam: Yes!

Erica: And that’s still like musical play for the child.

Sam: Mmhmm.

Erica: Um, what - therapeutically - like w - how do you take those activities and turn them into quote unquote therapy?

Sam: The biggest thing is doing those activities, but with intention.

Erica: Mmm.

Sam: So with Row Row Row Your Boat —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: You can encourage positive physical contact. So like, you can rock with your child while you’re saying “row row row your boat”. You can add a faster section to the song and go back and forth - so you’re being very intentional with practicing regulation —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: What does it feel like to go from low arousal to high arousal and back. And then all within the comfort of my caregiver right there with me.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: And those all can be resources for when - maybe you’re in line at the grocery store and maybe your child’s becoming impatient or something… and you need something to hold their attention —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: And then also, you’re actively engaging with them, and it’s a song that many people know.

Erica: Yeah.

Sam: And it’s also a chance to pass down like what’s important from your cultural background - like what songs were sung to you that you can share with your child.

Erica: Mmhmm. So, what kinds of settings are you working in? I mean, I know you work with children and families, but like, what does that mean and look like in your practice specifically?

Sam: Yeah, um, I’m at a couple of different places. [Chuckles] Um, uh, one of them - I’m at a home, where parents are in active dependency cases , and so - their visit time, they have the option to do music - and we do a a music group that focuses on promoting healthy bonding, as well as using music as a resource.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: Yeah, so that’s really creating a space for parents to practice responsiveness – when they haven’t been consistently seeing their child.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: I also am at a pr - birth to 5 center. And then there, I work with individuals, and sometimes I’ll work with families too if it’s - if there’s a need, where - say a child… it looks very different, depending upon - kid by kid basis, you know?

Erica: Totally - totally. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. But like, say there’s a defiance that’s coming up that’s also being expressed at home, then it’s like, let’s bring the whole family system into it and let’s see what’s going on.

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: So that’s at the birth to 5 center. And then, at an elementary school - same deal. Um, if there’s a sibling that’s been reintroduced to their family, it’s how can we… practice these new roles that we’re suddenly put into.

Erica: Got it.

Sam: Yeah.

Erica: And so… uh being at a birth to 5 center, being at elementary school, this… using music therapy to build relationship —

Sam: Yes! —

Erica: Applies to the whole - I would anticipate it applies to the whole lifespan, but it especially applies —

Sam: Yes —

Erica: To like birth through maybe… adolescence… at some point. I mean - I know you’re specifically dealing with birth through like… fifth-ish grade, yeah?

Sam: Yeah, fifth-ish grade - that’s typically the area I’m in the most, but really, it does apply across the life span —

Erica: Yeah —

Sam: Because - even looking at like couple’s therapy —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: It’s like - how can you be in an intimate relationship with another adult when you’ve had these experiences of mistrust and all of that. You can bring music into those situations as well, to help partners connect —

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: But yeah, I do the kids. So that’s [chuckles] why I can like speak more to that.

Erica: Yeah - yeah. That’s why we’re talking about nursery rhymes so much.

Sam: [Laughing] Yeah, no - but really, it applies to the entire life span, which is the amazing thing —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: How we can really be able to engage with music in that way.

Erica: Yeah. Um, what are the - what are the maybe ethical implications for the work that you’re doing? Because you’re coming in to a super like intimate, vulnerable part —

Sam: Yes —

Erica: Of a child or family’s life?

Sam: Yes yes yes.

[Erica chuckles]

Sam: There are a couple that I think of. First, immediately, I’m always validating and reassuring the parent that this is your child and you are the expert on your child - I am just here to provide the space for you —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: Because sometimes you might get a situation where the child is more tuning to you - the therapist than the caregiver —

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: And at that point it’s defeating the purpose of therapy - as far as their goals - what you’re tryna do. And also, like even thinking about attachment when you’re working with individuals… thinking about like what are the potential ethical implications with like different therapist transitions, or potentially different staff members… [Yeah… chuckles]

Erica: Okay —

Sam: There’s a lot of stuff that can come up —

Erica: Sure —

Sam: Where - it feels great to be needed, but it is not always therapeutically appropriate.

Erica: Mmm… Sure. Um, a few minutes ago you - when you were explaining your work, you were talking about, like, culturally relevant songs, and passing those down —

Sam: Yeah —

Erica: Um, how do you incorporate different like cultures into sessions, especially if it’s not part of your own particular culture?

Sam: Well, always ask [chuckles] the caregiver —

Erica: Yeah —

Sam: Because they’re the experts.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: Yeah, I always try to be as open as possible in saying, like, what are some songs that have been important for you growing up, or like some phrases. Sometimes we’ll write a lullaby for the parents, and in those situations, I’ll be like is there a certain phrase or a different language you want to be incorporated into it?

Erica: Mmm.

Sam: Yeah, and so just tryna be really intentional with that, and keeping an open line of communication —

Erica: Mmm. Are you then learning —

Sam: Yes —

Erica: Um, like folk songs and what not from caregivers?

Sam: Yes.

Erica: All the time then - I’m kind of assuming - on a pretty consistent basis?

Sam: Yeah, as it pops up, yeah.

Erica: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. It’s super important. [Chuckles]

Erica: Yeah - yeah. Okay, so, we also - you had mentioned that the use of nursery rhyme songs - ‘cause that’s just the easiest example to keep going back to —

Sam: It’s a solid one —

Erica: Everybody knows what a nursery rhyme is, for the most part —

Sam: It’s a good go to, and that’s why it’s so engrained, you know? —

Erica: Yeah. Um, any kinda folksong. Let’s just go with folksong in general.

Sam: [Laughing]Okay.

Erica: ‘Cause I think - I feel like - feel like nursery rhymes falls into the folksong category sometimes.

Sam: Yeah —

Erica: ‘Cause the nursery rhyme  —

Sam: Yeah, I see what you’re saying - I get you —

Erica: ‘Cause the nursery rhyme - like, Humpty Dumpty may apply to like American culture, but like, what if you don’t know Humpty Dumpty?

Sam: Yeah, I have no idea what Humpty Dumpty is [chuckles] —

Erica: You still have quote unquote nursery rhymes —

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: That are just, like, from other countries, and so —

Sam: We have different experiences… Yeah, yeah —

Erica: Yeah, yeah - how we —

Sam: OF the - yeah, of different rhymes —

Erica: Yes —

Sam: And songs that carries meaning to us —

Erica: Yes. But everybody has quote unquote baby toddler songs —

Sam: Yes! —

Erica: That you like singing to your child.

Sam: Mmhmm.

Erica: Yes. Anyway - sorry —

Sam: Sidebar.

[Erica and Sam laugh]

Erica: Okay, so, earlier you had said that we use - a music therapist is going to use folksongs, nursery rhymes, etc types of music, with intention, and that’s what creates the therapeutic nature of what you’re doing?

Sam: Mmhmm.

Erica: What can a caregiver do at home to help facilitate attachment, or relationship building, when they don’t have access to the music therapist necessarily?

Sam: Yeah, so anything to support the bonding —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: At the home. Yeah, very much just noticing what your child is doing, and actively reflecting it. And so being like, oh, I see you you’re doing that - that is - affirm, like, that is so cool! Or, any kind of play experience that you can both work on, such as like Patty Cake, is such a tried and true fantastic thing —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: Where you’re singing the song together, and then you’re actively involved in the motions.- the physical contact. Or even playing catch. That is a direct back and forth response —

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: Um, any opportunities for you to essentially just respond and attune to your child.

Erica: Sure.

Sam: Yeah.

Erica: If someone is looking for a music therapy, or thinks that they want to receive music therapy in a family setting —

Sam: Mmhmm —

Erica: Um, how do they go about… doing that? How do they find a music therapist? How do they know if maybe music therapy’s appropriate for their family? ‘Cause of like - there’s lots of other —

Sam: There’s so many different forms of therapy —

Erica: Expressive arts - there’s talk therapy —

Sam: Yeah —

Erica: There’s… etc etc etc.

Sam: All of which are fantastic.

Erica: Yes.

Sam: Um… Yeah, it’s just a matter of - are you more responsive toward music as like a modality, compared to say, may - maybe you’re potentially resistant to wanting to talk specifically about things, but you would rather act - or in situations where I know - some forms of therapy, there’s a lot of active coaching in it —

Erica: Mmm —

Sam: That may work great for some people - for others, they may feel uncomfortable - intimidated… Really, I would say that the expressive family, who uh, I don’t know.

Erica: Yeah.

Sam: I lost my train of thought.

Erica: It’s okay.

Sam: Yeah. Do you know what I was trying to say? [Chuckles]

Erica: So music - music therapy is really good also for those that maybe have nonverbal —

Sam: Yes —

Erica: Children, or nonverbal siblings —

Sam: Yeah, ‘’Cause it can really - it can be an opportunity for you to really see the cues that your child is giving you —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: Actively in session. And so it’s - you can practice nonverbal cues. And then also see what your child is actively communicating to you —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Sam: Through this nonverbal medium.

Erica: Awesome. This has been so great to learn about. I’m aware of the intersection of families in  music therapy and relationship building, but I didn’t know all these details. So thank you so much for sharing. Do you have any resources for parents or caregivers that maybe want to know more?

Sam: Um… the specific websites - I will give them to you —

Erica: Great —

Sam: ‘Cause I can’t know it off the top of my head. I know there are a couple really good ones where you can just google search, and there are some organizations that will just break it down to different ways you can interact and bond with your child. And then I would just encourage - anybody, really, to just not be afraid to use music in every - in everyday parts of your life.

Erica: Mmhmm.

Sam: Really, I would say that… you have the resources inside you to really implement this. Yeah. Research shows that children are predisposed to the voice of their caregiver. So whether you’re - you feel that you’re not musical - your child does not care. They just want to see and be loved by you.

Erica: I love that!

[Sam chuckles]

Erica: That’s so sweet. Um, sky - so, listeners, I will put the website - put the website links that Sam’s gonna give me on - in our episode notes and on our website.

If you would like to learn more about the Snohomish County Music Project, or are local and would like to receive music therapy services, you can go to our website at S, as in Sam [chuckles] - C, as in cat - Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on all major platforms for social media at SCMusicProject. Um, next week, we will be talking about the role of storytelling in music therapy, with Colby.

Sam: Woo!

Erica: Colby has talked with us before, and he is a wealth of knowledge —

Sam: That’s Colby — [chuckles]

Erica: On storytelling in music therapy. So, thank you, Sam, so much for talking with us. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]