Ep. 006 | Music & the Brain Part Two

Today, we chat with returning guest, Colby Cumine, a board-certified music therapist, about the applications of neuroscience in music therapy.

LEARN MORE

Your Brain on Music by Alan Harvey | TedTalk

Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain by O. Sacks | Book

This is Your Brain on Music: The Science of Human Obsession by D. Levitin | Book

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we return to our two-part series about the Music and the Brain with Colby.

If you have not yet met Colby, Colby is a board-certified music therapist, working primarily with elementary children experiencing trauma. He uses a social justice orientation and a trauma-informed lens while working with clients from a range of different backgrounds and abilities, always focusing on client strengths, and providing them with as much power and agency as possible in therapeutic settings.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome back for part two! Thanks for being here, Colby.

Colby: Hey, hi everyone!

Erica: I learned so much last week in that episode, um, particularly - it’s interesting [chuckling] that music activates the primary dopamine reward center, which, I learned, is because your brain interprets music as a necessity for survival, which is - that is the part that gets me is that is a necessity for survival according to your brain —

Colby: Right —

Erica: Not just, like our personal interpretation of like life —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: In our - how society runs and so forth.

Colby: Yeah, like I need music  —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: But also, like, neurologically I need music [chuckles]  —

Erica: [Chuckling] You need music. If you don’t know what we’re talking about, go back and listen to part one, and then come back and join this conversation again —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Because this conversation will make a lot more sense if you listen —

Colby: Yes —

Erica: To part one first. So, we talked about all the neuroscience last time —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Today we’re gonna talk more about like the applications —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And practical - what music therapy looks like in a session —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And how you’re applying that knowledge. Do you wanna start - what’s, like, a basic principle you use that incorporates the neurological information?

Colby: Um, I think we can start pretty basic with, um, the idea of like entrainment and grounding.

Erica: What does entrainment mean?

Colby: Yes - entrainment is the -the fact that we naturally will kind of match what music is doing —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: So, the best kind of example is if you’re running - you had a running playlist that’s usually at a higher tempo, ‘cause you’re gonna wanna be moving faster - and naturally our body will start to move to the tempo of the music. Uh, if you’re not paying attention and then you kinda like finally come back into focus, usually you’ll find that your running - your gate - is in sync to the music you’re listening to. It’s al - that’s also a theory [chuckles] used in like shopping centers in areas. If they want you to be scootin’ along, they’ll play faster music - if they want you to like stop and stay and look, they play lower - like - tempo music.

Erica: Oh, interesting —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Now I’m gonna listen closer to the music at the grocery store.

Colby: Mmhmm - it’s fun. It’s a time.

[Erica and Colby laugh]

Erica: Okay —

Colby: But yeah - so that’s what entrainment is. It can be more like broadly applied to some other situations which we’ll talk about. So we talked about this more in our episode about trauma-informed care, um when you can dissociate. And… part of helping, like, reintegrate everything is to ground yourself, and make sure that, um, we’re neurologically and physiologically aware that we’re in the current place —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: And, that can be done, um, through music as well. And so we’ll talk a little more about that… But that’s the general idea - of grounding is - not even done with music - it’s used across a wide variety of modalities, and then music just also takes from that as well.

Erica: Is entrainment specific to music therapy, or is it applicable or used in other therapeutic modalities - to your knowledge?

Colby: Yeah, to my knowledge, I’ve only ever heard it really used specifically with music… um, but not to say that - attunement, I guess, is a very similar word that is used often in attachment and bonding —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Type of… uh, situations.

Erica: Which you’ll learn more about next week —

Colby: Yes! —

Erica: With Sam —

Colby: Sam! —

Erica: We’ll talk about relationships in music therapy but… so, what’s attunement - what - is there a difference between attunement and entrainment? Or is —?

Colby: Yeah, attunement is a little bit more intentional, and it’s usually more person to person.

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Um… ‘Cause we also like talk about tuning instruments to make sure that they’re on, like, the same wavelength and stuff like that —

Erica: Sure, sure —

Colby: So similarly, in people, if you’re attuned to someone, you’re kinda like watching what they’re doing - you’re reflecting back - you’re having like a conversation that goes back and forth.  So that if you’re not attuned to someone, you might not notice certain things about them, or, um, they might feel that you’re not paying attention to - aren’t - aren’t present with them. Um, and Sam will… talk a lot more about that next week.

Erica: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay… So there’s entrainment —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Are there any other… concepts or principles that are related?

Colby: Some general terms - neuroplasticity is a fun one.

Erica: Neur - I cannot say this word. I - off - off air have been trying to say —

[Colby chuckles]

Erica: Neuroplasticity and—

Colby: Hey, there it is!

Erica: It’s very difficult! [chuckles] That’s the only time I’m gonna say the term.

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Great. So —

[Colby says something quietly, ending with the word ‘everything’]

Erica: What is that? [laughs]

Colby: Um, neuroplasticity is the - the fact that - so, brains go through - you know in more younger, critical development periods, when we’re learning, and, um, kinda deleting a lot of that information - things that we need - there’s that whole idea of use it or lose it, right, with our brains —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: And… generally, the brain doesn’t change too much after those development periods. But, it still can. And the ability for the brain to continue to change is neuroplasticity in and of it self - the idea that… plasticity is almost like malleability or flexibility - the ability to change, and then “neuro” is talking about the brain.

Erica: Okay. And so… entrainment —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Oh, this is the term - and that term - it’s gonna be like Voldemort - I’m just not gonna say the term anymore [chuckles] —

Colby: [Laughs] I’ll say it. I’ll be Harry —

Erica: [laughing] How does —

Colby: It’s neuroplasticity! [Chuckles]

Erica: [Laughs] How do these 2 um concepts and ideas - how do they… how are they applied in a therapy session?

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Can you give some like examples of —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: How you might use them?

Colby: Yeah, so there’s this one thing called the iso principle, um, which combines a bit of entrainment and attunement. Uh, iso principle basically means that wherever clients or someone else is at, if you meet them there at that energy level, you can then intentionally guide and move through to a different energy level. Um, so we use this like - at home, if you’re listening to sad music because you’re sad, and then you create a playlist that like moves into like happier music - so you’re finally ready for like the work day - or, um, going out with your friends - uh, that’s one example of it.

I might use it in session - uh, if kids come in from like, let’s say recess, and they’re still full of energy and super excited and bouncing off the walls, um, I will try to get them to attune to me by playing music that reflects where they’re at, so that they feel, like seen and heard and understood. And then they will attach to that music, and then I will begin to, um, play my faster music a little bit slower, decrease my volume a little bit, uh, make my sound a little bit softer - like, we need to kinda de-escalate until we hit a point, um, that I see that they’re tracking me and they’re staying entrained to the music, where, like they’re still reflecting the physical attributes, uh, and then, when we get to a spot where I think we can like continue forward and do some more like therapy-esque things… then, um, that is a successful use of the Iso Principle. Uh, it’s also used in, like, uh, clinical settings because… um, entrainment, in general, use - uh, is used also, um, to help with, like, regulating breathing or heart rate, um, because both of those things also will, um, change to match whatever music is currently being played. Fun fact there. And so, that is the whole, like, physiological response.

Neurologically, um, the thing that allows us to do this is something I don’t - I don’t think we got to last week called mirror neurons. Uh, mirror neurons are a fairly recent discovery that there’s these specialized cell in your brain - cells in your brain that, uh, kinda make this whole monkey see monkey do effect happen, so that we can both observe the outside world, and internalize it to see, you know, what’s best and safest - and then also to show others, like - hey, I’m copying you, which means if you’re not gonna punch me, I’m not gonna punch you. This helps us communicate, and feel safe and heard, and all those other things that all humans really need to survive.

And so the combination of that physicalogical response and the mirror neurons, um, are what allows us to use entrainment and attunement and the iso principle, so that we can help clients move from a place of distress - or a place where they aren’t able to kinda be in their current surroundings, um, to a place that is much safer to leave them in.

Erica: Interesting.

Colby: So that’s those.

Erica: So that’s how you… oh, so the last part you said it - it’s safer to leave them in —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: That’s an important part of creating the therapeutic boundaries —

Colby: Yeah, mmhmm —

Erica: In music therapy, so that you’re not causing harm?

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Which is something that —

Colby: Can happen —?

Erica: an - a - a musician that’s not trained —

Colby: Yes —

Erica: As a music therapist may not be aware of —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Or may not… do… —

Colby: Yeah. Mmhmm —

Erica: in the beginning or end of their performance. Which is important.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Kinda side tangent…

Colby: Mmhmm?

Erica: I particularly remember that in music school, one of my music theory classes, the professor played some really atonal - or disjointed sounding music —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And… I remember feeling really, like, tight in my chest and having a lot of anxiety —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And, I could - ‘cause I was in school at the time for music therapy —

Colby: Mmhmm - yeah—

Erica: Could recognize, like, why that was.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: And I remember having a conversation with the professor, and being like, you should play, like, soothing music [chuckles] —

Colby: [Chuckling] At the end —?

Erica: [Chuckling] At the end of class. Um, he didn’t really get it —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But… it’s a real thing that happens —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And that’s probably why - a more, like, practical daily example is like if you have a small child —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Or elementary age child, you do some sorta, like, night time routine and there’s, like, calm down music —

Colby: Yeah - mmhmm —

Erica: And like - that’s probably a more real world example of —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Unintentionally using attunement and entrainment to —

Colby: Even more broadly, think about, like, if you’re in traffic on the way home from work, you want to find music that can help - kinda keep you at equilibrium —

Erica: home from work, Mmm —

Colby: So like, we use it on a daily basis that we’re not even aware of. Like, when you’re picking the song you wanna listen to in the car, like, you are making all of these choices and thoughts - so you’re brain is like, what will be the best music to listen to? It’s like, why when you’re sad you listen to sad music —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: And why there - we can create playlists that transition from music that maybe helps you feel those feelings - and feel, like, seen and heard by the music you’re listening to - and then transition slowly into, like, a more neutral mood, or something that - you know, I can now go to work or go meet up my friends - with my friends for coffee - or whatever… daily functioning things you have to do.

Erica: I wonder if, like, wedding DJs use this - or like, any DJ would use this?

Colby: 100%! Not by like name, but they know it - like people kn - everyone knows that intrinsically inside of them - like, you know how to use music to adjust your mood. Like, you - you do that on a regular basis usually.

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: Uh kinda… I’m assuming a lot about our listeners…

[Erica laughs]

Colby: [Chuckling] But I’m assuming a lot of you use music to help kind of regulate your mood!

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: Um… that’s the most common example I get when I talk about my job, [chuckles] so I would assume —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: The general aud - yeah, public - that everyone’s aware of this iso principle and this entrainment - and we’re all using it. It’s just to use it in a more carefully crafted manner, we have that extra training, as well as doing it like live - with live music.

Erica: Absolutely, yeah.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: So, the word - the phrase that shall not be named, um —

Colby: Wanna talk about grounding first?

Erica: Oh! What’s - tell - I don’t even know - yes. Let’s talk about grounding.

Colby: Okay. So grounding - as I kinda previously explained was, um, a way for us to kind of re - uh connect folks who are dissociating - they’re kind of reality orientation - being back to the present and not going back to the past, or being out in space if they’re overthinking and having anxiety - panic attacks…. And so - I think also in the trauma episode we talked about how the frontal cortex - that frontal lobe kinda goes offline when you have that fight or flight response —

Erica: Yes. Yes —

Colby: And so - but your like hindbrain - that reptilian brain, the part that’s in charge of survival and movement is online and really reactive… And so, the part - we all talked about last episode how music is processed in the brain, like, everywhere, um, and that includes, like, our mortor - motor centers and our hindbrain.

And so, especially with drumming and rhythm, that’s really heavily processed there - also why more ric - roar - more music - more music rhythmic music makes us wanna dance more. But, because of that, we can use drumming or rhythm to be able to… reach people who are in those episodes or states - help kinda bring them back to… here. And that’s done, you know, entirely through music.

Or the same way like you can play someone’s favorite song- it can help kinda snap them back. I’ve used that a number of times of - kids who are , you know, starting to really hyper escalate and get into more aggressive behaviors - and they’re not ready to come back to class. We can - if we’ve worked together before, there’s that shared relationship between the 2 of us, and then I can bring songs I know they like, that will also help kinda recenter them. So that’s where grounding really comes in - is that —

Erica: Interesting —

Colby: Since the hindbrain is also er - accessed by music, you can still use music to get the people who aren’t going to respond to talking. Just - that part of the brain is not present - it’s not working at the moment - it’s offline.

Erica: Mmm. So music therapy then can be - really be a tool —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: For somebody that’s nonverbal —

Colby: Yes —

Erica: Whether situationally, electively, or other reasons.

Colby: Mmhmm - yeah.

Erica: And - can be a support system - maybe somebody’s not ready for talk therapy yet —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But they can try music therapy —

Colby: Yeah. Mmhmm —

Erica: And then maybe they’ll be ready to do talk therapy? Um, I think a big - this also another side - I’m a - the queen of tangents apparently —

[Colby chuckles]

Erica: But, um, when I am talking to the community - I think there is a misconception that music therapists want to be, like, the… the main care provider —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Or therapy provider —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And that’s just not true that we - we want to work alongside your physical therapist —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Your speech therapist, your OT —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Your mental health - your traditional mental health therapist —

Colby: Yeah. Like, we have our strengths and we’ll champion those, and then also know when to work with other people - when to seek supervision - and when to be like, yeah no, you’ll be better at this. [Chuckles] And like, here, please —

Erica: Yeah, absolutely —

Colby: Uh, work your magic. And… we can all work together —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: To make the world a better place! Wow! Yay!

Erica: Yay! Alright, so - tangent over.

Colby: Yes?

Erica: So, there’s… —

Colby: Now the term.

Erica: [Sighs audibly] The term. There’s the term that shall not be named. Um… [laughs] How does that work in a therapy environment? Like, what settings is it used in —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And like, what does an example of that maybe look like?

Colby: Yeah. So the two main ones I’m mostly aware of are in trauma care, and also in, uh, TBI - traumatic brain injuries - like strokes or… things of those natures - uh, head wounds - head traumas. SO, because the brain can be shaped differently, it can still be reshaped into a way that would have healthy functioning - in adaptive skills for coping with trauma - your trauma experiences… Uh, and so - using music to start to access those different venues - trying to kinda side step some of the pathways that might get activated by I don’t know - mentioning a certain word or trying to do things - like when your language centers are offline and we’re trying to talk through things… we start hitting - we hit a trigger or something that sends you back and your language center goes - uh, no, uh uh - you don’t need me right now - I need to get safe. Um, music is still an option —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Like we just talked about with grounding - to keep people present, so we can continue working through things. Or even, as you mentioned, people who aren’t ready to, like, enter that like… full talk center of it… Playing things representationally with music…I know, personally,  if I’m struggling with… like, heavy or big emotions… like, just playing an instrument - not talking not singing - not going through all that - just playing things out is really cathartic. And so these are all different ways that I use it personally in my practice to help with those things.

And that ties into the brain’s ability to take in new things, and change itself to incorporate those. A bit more… like, direct - um, that I’m aware of… in TBI recovery - is that, when those part of the brains - parts of the brain are damaged - because of stroke - because of a traumatic head injury, what have you, there are other pathways that music can access, especially on that right side - there’s a lot of research with speaking and speech recovery - using music because, if that language center on the left side is damaged, there’s still all the processes that we talked about in the right hemisphere - our emotion centers and things like that, that - we can still channel lyrics through. And, like, the most famous case of this is Gabby Giffords, the congresswoman that got shot in the head —

Erica: Yeah, yeah —

Colby: Um, and then, went to music therapy through help regain back a lot of her speech functions.

So that is another way in which we can take those other pathways and kinda re - wire and shape them to be used for non-musical speech. That has some other fancy terms for it in music therapy circles, but - maybe we can get - NMT does a lot of this - maybe we could talk to Megumi about it. [Chuckles]

Erica: Yeah, we’re gonna have a future episode with our colleague, Megumi, who is a neurologic specialized music therapist —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And she can speak more  - more in addition to —

Colby: Yeah, she uses a lot more of this, yeah, in practice —

Erica: Like how the brain functions - and how this works.

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: I think she works - I know she works specifically with Parkinson’s patience —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But I think she may also work with stroke patience, and she’ll be a another wealth - a wealth of wisdom —

Colby: Yes —

Erica: On this. Um, I was thinking - you had mentioned uh, Gabby Gifford —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Is a really popular well known example —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica:  of the use of music therapy. Um, another movie that I - another movie. Another example that I thought of was the movie King’s Speech.

Colby: Mmhmm?

Erica: Do you know this movie, Colby?

Colby: I know of it. Still haven’t seen it yet.

Erica: It’s with, uh, Colin Firth —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And it’s - oh I forget - a British royal, I think.

Colby: Yeah, King George?

Erica: I think it’s King George - look this up, ‘cause I may be wrong. Um, but the point of what I’m saying is that he had a stutter —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And he sang to work through that.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: So it wasn’t quote unquote music therapy ‘cause there was no actual music therapist and —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: A bunch of reasons why. But, it’s that principle of—

Colby: Yeah. The power of music’s still being used to like —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: Help work around that.

Erica: It’s a really good movie, go watch it.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: So… Uh, thank you so much, Colby, for joining us —

Colby: My pleasure —

Erica: For this 2 part series - sharing everything. Colby will be back I believe in 2 weeks - he’s gonna talk about storytelling in music therapy —

Colby: Yes!

Erica: Another one of Colby’s areas of deep knowledge and wisdom. If you would like to learn more about the applications for this, again, we’ll have the resources —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: In the episode notes - also on our website.

The website for the Snohomish County Music Project is S, as in Sam - C, as in Cat - music project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You can also follow us on all major social media platforms at SCMusicProject. Next week, we have a brand new guest. Sam Burns uh will be talking about music therapy and early childhood relationships - exploring questions like, how does early childhood relationships impact the child throughout their life, and how does music therapy support building secure relationships.

So, thank you, Colby. Thank you, listeners, for listening —

Colby: Later, y’all!

Erica: And we will talk to you next time.

Colby: Bye!

[Podcast outro music plays]