Ep. 005 | Music & the Brain Part One

Today, we chat with returning guest, Colby Cumine, a board-certified music therapist, about the science behind why people like music.

LEARN MORE

Your Brain on Music by Alan Harvey | TedTalk

Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain by O. Sacks

This is Your Brain on Music: The Science of Human Obsession by D. Levitin

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are starting a two-part series about Music and the Brain, with returning guest [sings], Colby Cumine.

Colby is a board-certified music therapist, working primarily with elementary children experiencing trauma. He uses a social justice orientation and a trauma-informed lens while working with clients from a range of different backgrounds and abilities, always focusing on client strengths, and providing them with as much power and agency as possible in therapeutic settings.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Thank you, Colby for being here, and welcome back to the podcast.

Colby: Thanks.

Erica: Just a quick side note that in a previous episode I had said that Vee was going to be part of this series. And unfortunately, Vee had some unexpected circumstances and isn’t able to be with us today. But, they will be back on the podcast in future episodes. So no worries —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Colby knows everything, so it’s alright. [Chuckles]

Colby: Uh, I don’t know everything — [laughs]

Erica: [Laughing] Colby knows a lot of things.

Colby: I do know things.

Erica: So, I’m particularly excited about this series, because - I feel like I know a reasonable amount of information about music therapy, but I don’t actually know that much about neuroscience particularly —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And I know that Colby really likes neuroscience. So —

Colby: I do find it interesting —

Erica: It’s gonna be exciting! Okay, so, can you start with - Colby, just give us a general overview of how does the brain work…?

Colby: Yeah. So the basic set up of our brains - we have four different lobes. Um, there’s the frontal lobe, which is like right in the front behind your forehead - and that’s where our executive functions - higher thinking, consciousness - usually takes place all in the frontal lobe - like the uppermost layer. Um, then we have two different side lobes. We have an occipital lobe, which is dedicated to seeing - sight - that whole entire sense. We have the parietal lobe, which is in charge of all other sensory inputs, and discriminating what those are. And the last one we have is the temporal lobe, which helps with our memory, speech, and auditory reception.

So, that was like the different lobes, and then - other ways people break the brain down is like hi - hindbrain, midbrain, and forebrain —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Forebrain being mostly just like that frontal lobe I was talking about - that - all that higher function - cognitive awareness - what kinda sets us apart evolutionarily —

Erica: Uh huh —

Colby: Um, from other animals. And then there’s the midbrain that acts as a connecting point between the forebrain and the hindbrain. Uh, the hindbrain - or like, the reptilian brain - is is, like, our basic survival stuff. So that’s so - with - the brainstem —

Erica: Yeah, that’s like - the brainstem, okay —

Colby: Uh, the amygdala - we’ll talk about a lot - um that has the emotion —

Erica: The - what is that word you just said?

Colby: Amygdala.

Erica: Amygdala.

Colby: Amygdala’s like our… like emotional response, but to like quick things. It comes up a lot in trauma talk.

Erica: Is that like the limbic system is?

Colby: Mmhmm, yeah, that’s part of the limbic system —

Erica: This is a term that I have heard. Okay.

Colby: The limbic system, yeah, is a lot of our emotional things as well as like action - quick snap reactions.

Erica: Okay.

Colby: So that all, like, ties together. The whole thing’s super complex. And very fascinating.

Erica: Yes. We’re obviously not gonna get a degree in neuroscience in the next 2 podcast episodes —

Colby: [Chuckling] Yeah, that’d be a lot —

Erica: But, thank you, yes. Well, so, there’s a forebrain —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: A midbrain —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And a hindbrain.

Colby Mmhmm.

Erica: And 2 important parts of that are - the brainstem, which is our survival system… —

Colby: The brainstem - yeah, is like survival, and also movement and our c - like talking to… the rest of our body —

Erica: Okay —

Colby: Like, the spinal chord going down - is all part of that - connects to the brainstem up to —

Erica: Okay —

Colby: Everything else. So, a lot of our sense - like bodily functions - maybe not bodily functions, there’s a proper word - like bodery - like body senses?

Erica: Like, involuntary functions?

Colby: Bodily senses? Uh —

Erica: Like, is breathing connected to that? ‘Cause we don’t like think about breathing —

Colby: No —

Erica: But you have to breathe to survive? —

Colby: That’s part of the autonomic nervous system? Or, no - peripheral nervous system.

Erica: Oh my goodness. [Laughs]

Colby: Yeah, no, there’s a whole bunch - like, we could really spend a lotta time - people get PhDs on this stuff.

Erica: Oh yes. Yes.

Colby: So I don’t know all of that quite as much in detail, but —

Erica: Some day we should bring a PhD in to talk about —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: How this works. And then the other important thing is —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: the… amygdala —

Colby: Yeah, that —

Erica: Which is your emotions and —

Colby: Comes up more in, like, trauma - it’s more of like your… flight or fight response —

Erica: Okay —

Colby: Is very much controlled by your amygdala. And then, emotions - reactions, such as like anger - fear —

Erica: Got it —

Colby: Those are all tied to the amygdala as well.

Erica: Got it.

Colby: So… That’s very much part of your survival —

Erica: Uh huh —

Colby: I’m just most familiar with that… name because of all, like, the trauma research and work that I’ve done. Um… yeah.

Erica: Okay. Cool.

Colby: Actually, we probably won’t talk about the amygdala much today, in regards to just processing music.

Erica: Oh, okay. [Chuckles]

Colby: Um, we’ll talk about… things more like reward systems are part of the limbic system. And other, like, auditory stuffs.

Erica: Okay.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Alright. So… what happens in our brains —

Colby: Mmhmm — —

Erica: When we engage with music? ‘Cause we’re talking about music therapy specifically, so…

Colby: Yeah. So, starting all out, there’s vibrations in the air - that’s sound, that’s music - that gets channeled into our ear, goes through the inner ear, and then starts hitting some - we have these like - it’s like tiny little hair cells in our deeper inner ear —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: They’re actually nerves. And the sound waves get sent through our inner ear - the way they vibrate will hit different nerves —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: And then that will send signals that go to our brains. So those nerve sigals - signals - um, get sent - they travel to the auditory brainstem - so part of that like parietal lobe —

Erica: Okay —

Colby: And part of the like system there. And the thalamus. The thalamus is actually part of our frontal cortex, specifically the orbital frontal cortex.

Erica: So, is that the front of your head?

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: We both tapped our foreheads at the same time.

Colby: Right here, in the front of our head. Test 1, 2. Okay —

[Erica laughs]

Colby: [Laughing] Um - yeah, the thalamus is, yeah, part of your frontal cortex, which is part of that, you know, higher thought. SO it gets sent to 2 different places, then, from there, some other signals are sent to the amygdala. Hey, it’s back —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: And the rest of the orbital frontal cortex - frontal cortex - and that’s where the brain begins to process emotional responses. So like we were talking about earlier, the amygdala has that strong connection to our limbic system and emotions. So that’s where like people will, like, cry in response to music. And even if there’s not - we can get into a whole thing about extra-musical associations - the connections like, the memories that are triggered when we listen to music —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: But even, like, without that, music can give us an emotional response. So, that’s kinda where that is all processed. And then, the bits in the auditory cortex… actually make an approximation - it’s called a Gestalt formation. But it’s —

Erica: These are a lot of terms.

Colby: It’s a lot of big words.

Erica: Wow. Okay.

Colby: Yeah. The scientific community likes making it hard to learn things. [Laughing] Um, but, that like approximation of the sound, that’s in our brain is used for the rest of our brain to process. Then from there, that formation has to kinda pick out different features of the sound. So like - in music, there’s lots of different things… Volume —

Erica: Like the elements - dynamics, tempo —

Colby: Yeah. Mmhmm, mmhmm —

Erica: Etc, etc —

Colby: Mmhmm, yeah- timber - different things. So that’s where, um, we can begin to pick those parts apart.

Erica: Okay, wait, can we pause for a second?

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: So just to make sure that I understand —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And for maybe listeners that are now lost —

[Colby laughs]

Erica: [Laughing] So…

Colby: So it travels —

Erica: So sound comes into your ear —

Colby: Ear, uh huh —

Erica: And you have these nerves —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Deep in your inner ear.. that feel the different wave lengths —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And amplitudes - and so forth of a wave —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And then, your… something with an A - your auditory cortex?

Colby: Yeah, your auditory cortex -mmhmm.

Erica: Your auditory cortex then interprets —

Colby: Yes —

Erica: What those nerves are experiencing —

Colby: Uh huh —

Erica: As sound —

Colby: And Mmhmm —

Erica: And that includes the different elements of music —

Colby: Yeah - mmhmm —

Erica: Speed, volume, types of noise —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Etc. Was that all… accurate?

Colby: Yes, uh huh. That’s all accurate.

Erica: And that’s called the - you had a G term - a gestalt —?

Colby: A gestalt formation.

Erica: Formation.

Colby: [Pronounces a hard G] Gestalt?

Erica: That sounds like… a German person’s last name.

Colby: It is!

Erica: Oh great.

[Erica and Colby laugh]

Colby: ‘Cause if you wanna go way back, I’m pretty sure that was some - anyway, that’s not - not getting into that. [Chuckling] Um —

Erica: Tangent.

Colby: Tangent. It’s a tangent. So yeah, and as that - same time - as that auditory cortex is making gestalt formations - that approximation of the sound, signals are sent to our emotional centers to begin to process - how are we gonna feel about this music?

Erica: Okay.

Colby: So, that’s happened simultaneously. And then, after the auditory cortex makes its approximation - or mental representation of it - it sends that representation to our frontal lobe, including our language processing centers - Brodmann's area.

Erica: Okay.

Colby: Um, so that way we can, like, decipher lyrics. And - also kinda cool ‘cause, you know, music’s sometimes called a universal language —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: And then it gets sent to our language center. So that’s just a fun little [clicks tongue smugly] connection there.

Erica: Oh, fun fact!

Colby: Um, it also goes to our prefrontal cortex - so it’s all in that front area. So —

Erica: Okay —

Colby: Back up and restate the whole thing. Uh, once that gestalt formation - that approximation - representation - all the ‘tion words - is formed, it’s gets sent to the - basically the frontal cortex, which includes your language center - our Brodmann’s area - and then, specifically within that, like, the prefrontal cortex - as well as just the general frontal lobe… So it goes to all of that, like, deeper analysis of… intervals or harmony - tonality - and that’s where, in like music school, you know, when you to sit down and listen to the same piece of music forever to do, like, a score analysis?

Erica: I do, yes.

Colby: Yeah [Chuckles] Yes, I know —

Erica: Colby and I went to the same school —

Colby: [Laughing] yeah —

Erica: So, we have a shared understanding of this major project we had to do in music theory —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And it was a lot of work.

Colby: Shout out to Dr. Chin. [Chuckling] Uh…

Erica: [Laughs] It’d be really funny to me if Dr. Chin listened to this podcast.

Colby: Fingers crossed. [Chuckles] But, yeah… So that’s the part of the brain that’s really active for all of that - which makes sense, ‘cause that’s where all of, like, our deep cognitive thinking happens. Right, that’s where we - like if we’re working on puzzles or riddles or decoding things and problem solving —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: That is that part of the brain. So our brain is kinda picking apart what is happening in the music - and then, at the same time, some of our… motor centers - part of why we like to dance to music —

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: Is because some of that sound is processed in that premotor cortex. And then… it also kinda figures out how we’re gonna - to viscerally - in our bodies - react to the music. ‘Cause, you know, sometimes there’s a - like a sharp part of the music that makes you go [gasps] and like you kinda, like, jump - if you heard my chair squeak in that audio cut —

[Erica laughs]

Colby: Um, like, music has the ability to —

Erica: I mean, that’s like in thriller movies —

Colby: Yeah! —

Erica: Alfred Hitchcock is like a prime example of —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Like, that piercing sound —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Creating a visceral response in you.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: When… if a -like a door [claps] slams and you’re not expecting it —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: That’s another, like, —

Colby: Yeah - so that is where - like, yeah  —

Erica: Just daily example —

Colby: The ways - that’s a really good —

Erica: Car horns… —

Colby: A way to, like, kinda connect how sound generally would be important to process in our motor cortexes. Then that also would apply to music!

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: Yeah. Again - part of why we like to dance to music - or how, like, our bodies would change with music being there.

Erica: And the visceral experience - we’ll talk about this more in the next episode —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: When we talk about, like, the applications of all of this —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: But I know, just from our conversations, that the visceral experience of of music is really important —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: To music therapy —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: As a treatment for trauma healing particularly.

Colby: Yeah. It all kinda folds and ties together.

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: But yeah, so all of that happens, and then as - at the same time as we kinda finish processing things in the amygdala, we know… how else our body’s going to react - are we gonna increase our adrenaline levels —?

Erica: Mmm —

Colby: ‘Cause, you know, this exciting music - or scary piece of music. Also, can actually effect the immune system. Fun fact —

Erica: Really? I didn’t know that!

Colby: Um, yeah.

Erica: Tell me more about this.

Colby: Uh… I will try — [laughs]

Erica: [Laughing] Tangent.

Colby: I have papers on - specifically the brain - so they were like tying things… Um… But yeah, our immune systems are affected by music.

Erica: By… music?

Colby: Yeah. Like, it can actually increase the number of these antibodies, um, that we produce, depending on what things we’re listening to.

Erica: Really? Oh!

Colby: There’s one study that they looked at the number —

Erica: Uh huh —

Colby: And they found that rats that were listening to music had a higher number of antibodies than ones that weren’t.

Erica: Really?

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: That’s very interesting. Wow.

Colby: It’s all wild and fascinating. We don’t a hundred percent know why - but we’ll get into a little bit of the why I think next episode —

Erica: Okay - okay —

Colby: And try and explain some of it. But it’s still something theorists are like [sucks in breath] music is? [Chuckles]

Erica: Huh. We’ll have to get  a - a music therapist that works in a hospital setting - a - like a medical hospital setting —

Colby: Mmhmm Yeah —

Erica: To - maybe they know more about this than we do - ‘cause we - our staff does not necessarily work in —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Medical settings.

Colby: Yes - we’re not in hospitals quite yet. The part that gets me the most is that all of this - what we just spent, like, I don’t know, 5 minutes talking about —

[Erica laughs]

Colby: Happens in our brain in 900 milliseconds. So like - not even 0.9 seconds.

Erica: How long is um - oh, that’s like less than a second —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: ‘Cause like 1000 milliseconds is a second.

Colby: Mmhmm. So it’s literally less than a second in which —

Erica: Wow!

Colby: Your brain listens - it hears something - like we hear music - and and then have all these immediate reactions to it. And that’s the brain going through all these functions. The brain’s fast.

Erica: The brain is so interesting.

Colby: Yeah. I love brains.

Erica: That’s really interesting. Yeah, you kind of addressed the question that I had in mind —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Which was what areas of the brain that are engaged in music processing?

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: I mean, you kinda covered it briefly —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Could you maybe —

Colby: In more condensed sentences than that —?

Erica: ‘Cause I am still processing what you just said —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: Could you - in more like layman’s terms explain music processing again?

Colby: Mmhmm - yeah. So what happens in, like, the frontal cor - the frontal lobe —

Erica: The front of your brain —

Colby: Which we talked about - in your brain that’s all about, you know, thinking and processing, and language. Um, it’s also interpreted in our language centers. It’s in our movement parts, which are part of the - part of the… temporal lobe.

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: And then it’s also in our emotional centers, like the amygdala, which is in our parietal lobe - or in the limbic system. So it’s —

Erica: It’s really every part of your brain.

Colby: It’s everywhere except the part that’s dedicated to sight.

Erica: Oh.

Colby: And, that can change if you’re, like, playing the instrument - or playing an instrument - or playing music, because then, folks who use their eyes to help them play instruments… would then, you know, have that part of the brain activated.

Erica: Like if you’re reading sheet music - is that what you mean?

Colby: If you’re reading sheet music, if you’re looking down to see where your hands are supposed to go —

Erica: Oh, totally.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, anybody that plays, like a violin, or an instrument where your f - hand is out in front of you —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: I used to play the viola, and I would do that quite a lot.

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: Okay, so that’s a lot about music processing. How does that information translate to maybe, like, why we like music?

Colby: Yeah. So, for like a more, like, a - hard neuroscience-y approach to why we like music… Um, there are thoughts in - that dopamine is released when we listen to music - it’s one of our, like, primary pleasure neurotransmitters.

Erica: Okay.

Colby: Um, and that’s also been tied to, like, learning - and ideas about, like, how much pleasure we get from something being tied to, like how much we can predict them accurately. So, if a piece of music is like super repetitive, it gets boring, right?

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: We can predict it perfectly each time —

Erica: Yeah —

Colby: And we’re no longer learning anything new. So, it’s not interesting to us - it’s not enjoyable in the same way.

Erica: Mmm.

Colby: Um - and then, on the other end of the spectrum, if a piece is… wildly unpredictable… then, generally, we don’t enjoy it at all. Because the variations are too far - we’re not actually learning or gaining anything from it. So, like, dopamine is not being released - we’re not being like, okay cool, I’ve learned something - it’s more like, what in the world was that?

Erica: Okay —

Colby: Should be worried - I should panic. That’s why atonal music makes you go [deep gasp] Um, but that’s —

Erica: No Charles Ives - can’t do it.

Colby: Yeah. No Charles Ives. No Schoenberg.

[Erica and Colby laugh]

Colby: But, in that middle - in that sweet spot is - when things are just like a little bit different —

Erica: Mmhmm —

Colby: It’s been shown that we actually release more dopamine than - versus when we predict something accurately. So there’s studies about, like, different cadence endings and how they produce different levels of dopamine and our reactions…

And so the idea then being that, um, since music is so… generally really stable and predictable and repetitive, it is r - hitting that learning spot of being like, okay, I’m picking these things up - but then there are enough small changes as we go throughout a song, that we’re like - [shocked tone] oh - [pleasantly surprised tone] oh - [unsure tone] oh - [comfortable tone] oh. And we’re being flooded with more and more dopamine because we’re getting the vast majority of the thing by - it hits kinda like that sweet spot, in the middle between way too out there and way too predictable, that keeps it engaging for us. It’s part of kinda like why really repetitive pop songs are really fun at first, and then they kinda fade out really quickly - because, once we listen to it a few times, we’re like, okay —

Erica: We got it —

Colby: I can predict this over and over again. [Says quietly] Not to say pop music’s bad. [Chuckles]] Um… but —

Erica: We love pop music.

Colby: We love pop music —

Erica: We just also like other kinds of music —

Colby: Yeah. And it is just also —

Erica: And this is how your brain works —

Colby: kinda a well-documented thing that, like, things come and go in fads and trends.

Erica: Yeah.

Colby: A different conversation. But - yeah, there’s this - that idea of being able to predict most of what’s gonna happen, and then that little deviance is what is - helps us learn, and therefore gives us the most dopamine… response and release.

Erica: Oh.

Colby: So that’s - that’s my personal favorite theory as to why we like music, um, so much - is because, like, it hits on all of those things. We’re, like, learning the piece of music as we listen to it, and then that triggers our primary pleasure response via dopamine.

Erica: Wow!

Colby: Yeah.

Erica: I never knew so much about dopamine… I don’t think.

Colby: We can get further down that rabbit hole.

Erica: We’re not gonna go down that rabbit hole.

[Colby and Erica laugh]

Colby: [Laughing] It’s not tied directly to liking certain - never mind…

Erica: Yeah, so there’s the - wow - there’s so much to - in music… I remember in school, that there was a, like, Physics class —

Colby: Mmhmm, yeah —

Erica: That was specifically about sound and - for music majors - I didn’t - I wasn’t able to take it, but this sounds like - it’s like the combination of, like, how your brain works and then, like, the physics of sound, and —

Colby: Yeah, like, they - yeah—

Erica: That sounds like such an interesting thing to learn more about.

Colby: Mmhmm.

Erica: So… unfortunately, we are not a neuroscience podcast.

Colby: [Chuckles] Why not?

Erica: [Chuckling] So we can’t talk endlessly about neuroscience, but I’m sure Colby would love to come back some day and tell us more about neuroscience. Maybe we’ll have a whole episode just about dopamine and music in —

Colby: Yeah, ‘cause that’s tied to, like, Parkinson’s Disease —

Erica: Yes.

Colby: Um, which is - what’s the word? What’s the word? Diagnosis!

Erica: [Chuckling] A diagnosis.

Colby: [Laughing] I haven’t used that word in so long - I forgot what it was. Parkinson’s Disease is a diagnosis that a lot of music therapists do work with. Um —

Erica: Yeah, there’s a whole section - er, section - there’s a whole… um, not —

Colby: Like, discipline - sub-discipline - subclass?

Erica: Yeah, there’s a whole discipline in music therapy called Neurologic Music Therapy —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: And, um, I think, like, Megumi would be good —

Colby: mmm —

Erica: I will ask Megumi —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: to come to the podcast - we’ll invite Megumi. Megumi is one of our music therapists in the Pacific Northwest that works with Parkinson’s —

Colby: [says something in a sing-song tone] Mmhmm —

Erica: Patients. And I’m sure she’ll be happy to share what she knows about NMT, Neurologic Music Therapy.

Colby: Yeah, she’s a rock star.

Erica: She is —

Colby: We love Megumi —

Erica: So - that’s a good idea. Write that down.

[Colby chuckles]

Erica: Anyway, so - thank you, Colby, so much for sharing. Colby will be back next week to talk about the applications all - of all of this. ‘Cause, not only does he know all of this, but then, music therapists [chuckles] also use all this information to inform —

Colby: [Chuckling] I do —

Erica: [Chuckling] All the things that they do in sessions. So, it’s a whole -that’s why it’s an evidenced-based practice, and not just a thing that you do —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Just because you feel good. SO… if you would like to learn more about what we’re talking about —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: Colby has prepared a whole list of resources —

Colby: Yeah —

Erica: That he’s gonna send me. And they will be in the episode notes —

Colby: Mmhmm —

Erica: And they will also be on our website. If you would like to learn more about the Snohomish County Music Project, our website is S, as in Sam - C, as in Cat - Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). You can follow us on all social media at S, as in Sam - C, as in Cat - Music Project. We’re on Instagram, we’re on Facebook, we’re on Twitter - we’re even on LinkedIn.

Colby: Wow.

Erica: So, come check us out. [Chuckles] Thank you, listeners, for listening. I hope you were able to follow the whole conversation, with all of our science terms - or non-science terms. And we will talk to you next time.

[Podcast outro music plays]