Ep. 049 | Being Board Certified: The First Year
Today, we chat with guest, Leslie Lawrence about her first year being a board-certified music therapist.
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we chat with Leslie Lawrence about her first year being a board-certified music therapist. From Seattle, Leslie grew up with music being a major influence in her life, and was actively involved in her school choirs, where she developed a deep relationship with music. Leslie graduated from Berklee College of Music, in Boston, and completed her internship with the Snohomish County Music Project. Now, Leslie works as a board-certified music therapist in mental health.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome, Leslie, to the podcast. I know you a little bit because you were an intern at the Music Project before you started your professional life. But how did you originally become interested in music therapy? What was your initial introduction to it?
Leslie: Yeah, so I um - I’ve always really just had this really strong relationship with music. And - I think it really started in middle school - you know, middle school is hard [chuckles] —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Leslie: It’s not a fun time in life. And that was when I really started songwriting. And I never shared it with anybody - it was like how I journaled. And so I kept doing that until high school, and like, I don’t know what I wanna do with my life [chuckles]. I know I love music and I love to be there for people.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Leslie: I was on Facebook one day and literally had an ad on Facebook pop up for music therapy.
Erica: Oh, really?!
Leslie: That is how I found out about music therapy. I had no idea it existed, and it popped up, and I was instantly in love. It just popped up and I - I just started doing more research, I found Berklee College of Music, and I was like, this is my calling!
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: This has been something that’s helped me so much in my life - I would love to learn more and be able to help more people.
Erica: Yeah.
Leslie: So that’s what lead me to music therapy.
Erica: That is so interesting.
Leslie: Yeah.
Erica: Nobody has told me yet that they found it through a social media ad, so that is a very unique narrative. And so, can you tell me what your practice kinda looks like at this point? So you’ve been a professional a little over a year at this point, what does practice and life look like for you?
Leslie: So I work at a behavioral health hospital, so um even through this pandemic, I have been going to work every single day. And I run 2 to 3 groups per day, um and it’s inpatient and outpatient - I’m in both of the programs in the hospital. So I work with a lot of different patients - I think we’re a hundred-thirty bed hospital, and so I work on more than half of - of the hospital [chuckles] so I get to see a whole lot of people.
Right now, it’s a lot different from when I first started. Um, so I don’t do as much like active music making - just because of the situation in the world - and so I’ve had a lot of changes [chuckles] —
Erica: Yeah —
Leslie: [Chuckling] in this year I guess. SO um, it’s still ever-changing, you know, what my practicereally looks like, and what my patients really need - because it’s - it’s changing every single day
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: For me.
Erica: Yeah.
Leslie: It’s definitely not what I expected [chuckles] when I was coming in to music therapy. And it’s not like it was in my internship either.
Erica: Mmm, yeah.
Leslie: Um, you know, in internship you’re going in and being guided, and you’re like, oh my gosh, I have so many different ideas, and I wanna try this session and that session, and getting a whole bunch of feedback. And in professional life, it’s like, nope. You’re being thrown in [chuckles].
Erica: Yeah.
Leslie: I don’t get to check in with my supervisor before [chuckles]
Erica: Are you working in a team environment? Are you pretty solo as a therapist?
Leslie: So we have 3 music therapists on staff - including myself.
Erica: Okay.
Leslie: Um, which is pretty amazing. So we do get to kind of bump ideas off of each other, but I work on separate units than our other music therapist who’s there full time. So, you know, we - we can bump ideas off of each other, but we don’t see the same patients.
Erica: Um, and so, there’s been so much time between when you discovered music therapy and like where you are currently —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Why - why are you a music therapist?
Leslie: You know, that’s changed for me throughout the years. And I think what’s changed the most is really just having that relationship with other people.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: And being able to really learn and watch somebody grow. I really get to support individuals who are going through a really hard time in their lives, um and I think that’s something that I really - I really love, is just that relationship between me and - and whoever I’m working with.
Erica: Absolutely, yeah. And that really speaks to the core of what music therapy is —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Is this blend of music, and relationships, and intentionality, and boundaries —
Leslie: Yeah —
Erica: In order to move towards um improved wellness or better wellbeing.
Leslie: Definitely, for sure.
Erica: IS being a professional what you thought it would be? Er, how is that going for you?
Leslie: Um, you know, it’s a hard switch. Uh —
[Erica and Leslie chuckle]
Leslie: Um, you know, you always have kind of this mental image of what being a professional looks like. And you know, it’s going in and doing exactly what your job description says, and, you know, having to be super professional about everything - and those clear` lines. And it’s not so much. I mean, yeah - yeah you do go in there and you are professional and try to have those boundaries and things, but it’s different with each person that you work with —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: You know, and I think it’s more than what I thought it was gonna be. [Sighs] Being a professional, man…
[Erica and Leslie chuckle]
Leslie: Especially this year - it’s so hard!
Erica: And this has been a whole like other experience.
Leslie: Exactly.
Erica: I’m really curious about like - obviously the pandemic has affected everybody in a collective sense —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: For you, specifically, because you’re in this season where you’re really developing who you are as a professional —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Independent from your school, independent from your internship site.
Leslie: Mmhmm.
Erica: How has that been? How have you been navigating that in a time where nothing is as what it was?
Leslie: Yeah. I think I’ve had to really take a pause and look at myself a lot throughout this time as well. And try to work on my own mental health a lot.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: ‘Cause it - it is - there’s so many different changes that happen, when you go, you know, from school, graduating, to internship, and then to professional life. And that’s been so, you know, different and hard, trying to find out who I am as a therapist. And now, with - with this pandemic and everything else, it’s like: who am I as a person as well through this?
Erica: Yeah!
Leslie: Um, so, I think that that’s actually influenced a lot of the way that I run therapy as well. Because I’m going through that, and so being able to hear that, you know, even my patients are going through that, you know - and being able to bring my own experiences throughout this to my therapy - and being able to be that support person during that time - it’s just been really a lot, you know. And trying to really do some self care every day, and be really aware of how I’m reacting to different situations.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: I always bring that up in therapy too. You know, like being really aware of your body and the way that, you know, your emotions fluctuate and all of that. And so, I’ve had to [chuckles] kind of step in and do that as well.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. ‘Cause trauma, which is what’s happening during the pandemic is the collective trauma —
Leslie: Yeah —
Erica: Is held viscerally in your body’s nervous system.
Leslie: Mmhmm.
Erica: So body sensation and body awareness is really important in the de-stressing process, in the self care process —
Leslie: Yeah —
Erica: As you’re trying to like continue to navigate through things. ‘Cause if you hold onto that, your body’s literally holding onto that. It’s still felt.
Leslie: Definitely —
Erica: Yeah. What are some like practical things you’re noticing - or like tangible things you’re noticing as you’re in therapeutic spaces that um youre either doing differently because of the pandemic, or you’re just considering differently because of the pandemic? Like, obviously there’s like uh safety protocols that have changed, like distancing and masks, and so forth.
Leslie: Mmhmm.
Erica: HHow are you using music if you can’t be sharing instruments, and like be doing all of these like typical things that we would normally do?
Leslie: Yeah. Um, that’s been a - a big curve for sure. We’ve been doing a lot of - or at least, I have been doing a lot of like song sharing.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: Though, you know, being able to identify, you know, different music that people are really relating to in this time. And - and going through kind of those trauma responses and seeing, you know, how can we relate to music in this time, and seeing that validation in the way that we’re feeling, so I do - I do a lot of that. As well as just lyric analysis - trying to kind of build up um tolerance and emotional regulation, you know. And - and trying to really start those conversations in group. ‘Cause, you know, ‘Cause, you know, I would love to bring instruments in and be like, alright, let’s express our emotions through music, you know —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Leslie: Um, but right now, it’s a lot of that conversation starting. Um, so using music as a tool to start those conversations, and then being able to share songs that, you know, express the things that we feel like we can’t put into words.
Erica: Yeah.
Leslie: Um, and so using a lot of - a lot of recorded stuff, I would say, is the big - the big thing [chuckles] —
Erica: Yeah —
Leslie: Lots of recorded.
Erica: And that makes sense, ‘cause that’s like the safest way to do what you need to do.
Leslie: Mmhmm.
Erica: Um, has your therapeutic philosophy shifted over the last year? And maybe, how has the pandemic influenced like how that has shifted? I feel like the pandemic influences everything —
Leslie: Yeah —
Erica: That’s always like a side question in addition to like a standard level question.
[Leslie chuckles]
Erica: Because in a year, so much happens, regardless of global pandemics.
Leslie: Yeah. Honestly, I think my therapeutic philosophy is still developing.
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: Um, I think that, with the pandemic, it’s kind of - it’s been all over the place that I feel like I haven’t gotten quite that solid who am I as a therapist quite yet. And I’ve kind of had to accept that —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: And move forward from that. Um, because I tend to get kinda hard on myself as well, on being like, well I need to put it into words - I need to be able to really fit into a category and all of these things. And it’s like, you know, I don’t [chuckles]. I - I don’t yet. You know, I’m there to support individuals, and I think that’s where I’ve been since the beginning, is really just developing that relationship, the trust, with patients - being social, being able to bring in um DBT skills even. And I think that’s just been shifting throughout, and I haven’t had a whole lot of time to really think that through —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: As much as I would want to. Um, so I think it’s still developing for me.
Erica: Sure. That’s so fair.
Leslie: Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. And I even think that evolves —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: For everybody over the course of time.
Leslie: Yup.
Erica: And it can be really hard to like pinpoint that —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Exactly at any one given moment. How you’re feeling about like your viewpoint on life, or how the world works —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Or um… That can be evolving. I’m curious: what have you learned about music therapy this year?
Leslie: Yeah. I’ve learned that it can be so versatile. And it can be um taken in many different ways by many different people. Um, so music therapy means something different to every single individual that I meet. And it’s been really interesting to have patients who are in some of my groups who are like, I don’t vibe with music. [Chuckles] You know, and being able to still like create a relationship with that person, even if it’s not a musical relationship, you know. Or how they can use music, even if it’s something that they don’t feel is as tangible to them. Um, music therapy, gosh… it - it’s so diverse and different with every single person, and so being able to facilitate that in a group setting can be tricky [chuckles] —
Erica: Yeah —
Leslie: For sure. And so, just giving everybody that space to take it as they’re - as they’re going to, you know —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: Instead of making this mold of music therapy as one thing. No. Each person takes it differently on what we’re doing. And so giving them all of that space in order to —
Erica: Yeah —
Leslie: See what their - what their take is, I guess.
Erica: Yeah. I’m kinda curious about like what has surprised you about like what you’ve learned about you this year —
Leslie: Mmm —
Erica: In the context of like career and like professional spaces.
Leslie: I guess what surprised me the most this year is really that fact of being able to use music that isn’t necessarily always live [chuckles].
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: That’s something that surprised me. Throughout my internship it was always, you know, what can we - what can we do with live music? How can I help support my clients/patients um with active music making. And so, it’s been kind of a surprise to be able to bring in a piece of music and a lyric sheet, and just have that be enough for group, you know. And really being able to use that as a therapeutic tool.
I mean, I’ve always, you know - throughout school and everything - heard about lyric analysis and, you know, how important it is. But being able to have that be almost your only way of therapy, you know, as - as non-music making has been really surprising.
Erica: Yeah. That makes sense to me. Because, I think there’s - from the community’s perspective like at large, and then from students and incoming professionals - I think there’s a sentiment that clings to that music therapy has to be live —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Music making all of the time. Um, which is I think why like one of the top questions I get asked by uh people that are wanting to see if music therapy is a good fit for them is like, do I have to be able to sing - do I have to be able to play an instrument —?
Leslie: Uh huh —
Erica: Like, how much music education or experience do I need to have and —
Leslie: Yup. I get asked that question all the time.
Erica: All the time.
Leslie: If you have to sing, I don’t like it. [Chuckling] You don’t have to sing, it’s okay.
[Leslie and Erica laugh]
Erica: And part of the reason, like - of course we say like, no, like you don’t have to do any of those things —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: To participate in music therapy - and that’s for a few different reasons. But one of them being that music therapy is not always like you playing something. Like there’s a lot of different ways of having a therapeutic experience —
Leslie: Absolutely —
Erica: Without touching an instrument.
Leslie: Yup.
Erica: In what ways do you feel like your internship experience really prepared you for professional life?
Leslie: Mmm —
Erica: And what sort of things have you learned just by doing?
Leslie: So, one of my favorite things about my intern experience was the support that I got from my supervisors —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Leslie: I had many there, you know, that were able to give all of the advice and - and wise-ness um of being a music therapist. And I think also being open and honest in - in asking questions.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: And I think that has brought immense growth in the first year that I have been a music therapist. Because I’ve been able to, you know, just like [chuckles] have that 10 seconds of courage, and be like, okay, I’m gonna ask this queston even though, you know, I feel like it might be a silly question. And it’s like, no, there are no silly questions.
Erica: Yes.
Leslie: And being able to bring that up, you know, with other music therapists, or my supervisor, or a doctor, or a social worker, you know. And being able to really stand up and - and advocate for myself - I think that’s a really big one. Um, ‘cause I had - [laughing] you guys are such a great team over at Snohomish County Music Project - and I feel like that’s - kind of self-confidence - that self advocating was so big there um that I’ve kind of carried that over to my work at the hospital. And being able to really say what I need in a moment —
Erica: Yeah —
Leslie: And if things are making me uncomfortable, you know, being able to speak for myself and say, you know, this needs to change - or we need to have a conversation around, you know, this aspect of the work that I’m doing. Um, and it’s been really really nice to have that open communication and be able to feel more confident in myself while doing that.
Erica: Yay! Yeah.
Leslie: I thank all of you for that.
[Leslie and Erica laugh]
Erica: I will - I will happily accept the kudos on our team’s behalf —
[Leslie laughs]
Erica: But also want to acknowledge like, you do so much of the work for yourself. And that is how it moves with you into other spaces, is ‘cause you continue to do the work.
Leslie: Definitely, yeah.
Erica: Um, what have you been learning on the job? Or just by doing?
Leslie: Flexibility [chuckles]. Flexibility, this year, has been the word right there.
Erica: Yes.
Leslie: Oh gosh… I’ve learned that a lot throughout this year. You know, changing schedules, um running a group of 10 individuals versus 1 individual, and just really on my toes. Being able to change a session plan when I get there, you know. If - if the session plan that I had set and ready to go, and I get there and, you know, everybody needs a shift. Like, okay, I’m gonna change that right here right now. And being okay with that.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: And - and trying to bring in that acceptance of, you know what, I’m gonna bring in the best that I can bring. And I’m going to try to make it great for the people who have come to this session, you know.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so thinking about like using a lot of recorded music for your sessions right now - I think we spend so much time, at least in my observation of like undergraduate music therapy programs, focusing on musicianship skills - for a very good reason —
Leslie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Like, you have to have great musicianship skills in a few different areas.
Leslie: Yup.
Erica: Um, how do you develop or start the learning process for things around like recorded music? Like, how - do you spend a lot of time just listening to music? Do you have resources that you go to? For like, I need a song that kind of like fits like X, Y, and Z, or —
Leslie: Mmhmm —?
Erica: What is that process like for you?
Leslie: Oh man, that process has been - it’s been a development for sure. Uh, first it was Google, you know - what can I find? What’s out there? And then I started to learn that, through my song shares, I was getting a whole lot of great music repertoire —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: That was totally focused on mental health. You know, playlists worth. And as well as just checking in with my co-workers, um and really using them as - as a means of, okay, I have this session that I really want to focus on reality orientation, right - what’s a great song or a great resource to use for that? And - and using their knowledge in my searching. There’s also - it’s a music therapy database —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: Um, for different songs and stuff. And I - I cannot remember for the life of me what the name of it is. That’s been a really big help as well. Um, so just using other music therapists and what they’ve kinda developed throughout the years as well.
Erica Mmm —
Leslie: Um, and being able to use them.
Erica: That’s one of the really cool thing about having. A music therapy community like we have in Washington state. Like, we’re here to help each other find what we need.
Leslie: Yeah. There’s so many amazing resources from the community of music therapists, whether it is in Washington state, or just around the world, right?
Erica: True. Yeah —
Leslie: It’s funny ‘cause that’s one of the main things that I - I learned at Berklee - was like, network, network, network.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: You know, ever lose those contacts - always keep the conversation rolling, you know And I think that’s helped me in the long run - so much - is just, you know, like nurture those connections that you make, and in turn, it’s going to help your practice. And who knows, maybe down the line, when I’ve actually been a music therapist for a lot longer, maybe I can help out, you know, maybe somebody who’s first starting out as well.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. What does nurturing those relationships look like for you?
Leslie: Yeah. So, one of ‘em, I would say, is kinda like doing this podcast right here, and being able to just come on and start conversations. I’ve also seen a lot like recently, there’s so many different Facebook groups —
Erica: Mmm —
Leslie: On there. And so, just nurturing those - starting those conversations - checking in with people, you know: how are you doing through this? Or asking ‘em questions - you know, you’re working with this population, you know, what is something that you focus on in there? So just starting those conversations for sure.
Erica: Mmm. Awesome! Is there anything that you have learned in your process that you would want to share with others?
Leslie: Mmm. Yeah, have patience with yourself.
Erica: Mmm.
Leslie: Have patience with yourself. Don’t beat yourself up. I’m taking a class right now, and the lady that’s running this class continually says, you are enough. And that has been an amazing phrase that has been sticking with me [chuckles]. Like, absolutely - sometimes I feel drained, and I feel like, oh my gosh, that session - like nobody got anything out of that… But it’s like, no. You are enough. You did - you did enough in there. Be patient, you know, every moment is a learning moment, you know. And grow from it.
Erica: Mmhmm. I love that!
[Leslie chuckles]
Erica: Well, thank you so much for spending itme with me today, and chatting, and sharing about this year. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
Leslie: Yeah! Of course, thank you!
Erica: If you’d like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam, C as in Cat, Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org.) On our website, you can also find transcripts of every podcast episode. We encourage you to connect with us on social media @SCMusicProject. Never miss notifications for new episodes and other projects.
Thanks again to Leslie for being here today. Thank you listeners for listening, and we’ll talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays].