Ep. 050 | Being a Trans Music Therapist

Today, we chat with guest, Saul Hudacin, about his experiences being trans and becoming a music therapist.

TRANSCRIPT

Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we chat with Saul Hudacin about his experiences being trans and becoming a music therapist. Originally from Indiana, Saul has lived in the Pacific Northwest for the last 6 years. He is finishing his post-baccalaureate in Music Therapy, with an emphasis in Psychology, and completing his internship in a memory care setting.

[Podcast intro music plays]

Erica: Welcome to the podcast, Saul. It’s your first time here - it’s a party! I love having guests on for the first time - I just like love getting new perspectives on what’s what and how things are going.

Saul: It’s awesome. I’ve been listening to your podcast, on people that I know/people that I don’t know, just to sort of like hear what it’s about. And I have also really enjoyed getting a lot of different perspectives and getting to know some of the different people you’ve interviewed better.

Erica: Yeah.

Saul: It’s really cool.

Erica: It’s really fun. You and I met um, at least, to my memory, for the first time during what we call Hill Day in Washington, which is where we go down to the state capitol and we talk to all the legislators. And I just remember it was a really fun day. I enjoy the advocacy part of the work, but also I just really enjoyed like being silly in between meetings, and yeah. I’m really looking forward to this conversation again.

Saul: Same. The advocacy is always great, but it’s not like - I wouldn’t say fun, in the same way.

Erica: Okay, so before we jump into the bulk of the episode, question I ask everybody: how did you originally become interested in music therapy?

Saul: Um, I’ve known about music therapy for a long, long time, but I had never really thought about myself being a music therapist up until actually about 8 years ago. I had a really good friend who was uh dying, and he spent the last 5 weeks in hospice, and before that, I spent a lot of time with him. And I had this sort of eye-opening experience for myself, where I was making music at that time, and I had this idea of if I could make music that would make my friend like more relaxed, or like deal with what he was going through a little bit better, how much of a positive impact that that could possibly have on his life. And it started me on this whole sort of like journey. And it’s gone up and down, and I’ve gone a few different ways. But that was really, really the impetus that sort of like brought me to really thinking about becoming a music therapist.

And then, fast forward several years later, I took the intro class at SPU to see if it was something that I really was interested in - just to learn more about it. And a few weeks into the class, I was like, oh yeah, this is [clicks tongue] this is what I’ve been waiting my whole life to do I think [chuckles].

Erica: [Chuckles] That’s so cool, yeah. And so, can you tell me a little bit about like what’s your professional background before you got to music therapy? And I’m curious about how that informs - if at all - how it informs your therapeutic practice, or how you think about the future as a therapist.

Saul: Yes. My work now, and - and before becoming a - going to school to be a music therapist, really really informs my decision to become a music therapist for several reasons. And  it really informs everything about me. Because I work in health care, and I’ve worked in health care since 2004. I worked at Walgreen’s as a pharmacy technician for about 11 or 12 years. I worked in Huston, um and I - when I moved to Seattle 6 years ago, I transferred to a Walgreens in Seattle. I no longer work at - now I work at Harbor View -  doing the same thing as a pharmacy technician.

But, going back to when I first started in - in healthcare - I really just got a job at Walgreens - I just needed to make money. And I got a job in the pharmacy to make more money, like that was my whole goal was to make more. Um, in Huston I was working in an HIV pharmacy - it wasn’t just HIV, but there was a very very HIV focus because of the area we were in. And it shifted sort of my world view.

So this is like in the mid-2000s. I had this idea of what HIV and AIDS kind of looked like, and then I was like sort of face to face with patients, and it was totally different - it was everybody. And it like - I was being so stereotypical, but it was like - you know, in - in my mind it had a picture. But it -my mind was blown, because every walk of life had HIV and AIDS. And I got really involved in sort of advocating for that community, and for their medication rights.

So, it was in this time that um my friend was dying, and I was working with my friend - he was a pharmacy technician, and I just like - I was like, I need to do something in healthcare. Like, this feels right. Not necessarily being a pharmacy technician, but like, being in healthcare - speaking for people who have trouble speaking for themselves, or who can’t speak for themselves - that felt right to me. So that is a huge part of like advocacy and the healthcare needs of - of others, the medical needs of others. These things are really really central to who I sort of like identify I  - I guess, as like a human being/helper sort of like person.

Erica: Yea.

Saul: You know, I think - I can’t speak for all people who are like this, but I - I find this to be pretty true. But like for many of us who are like - wanna help people is like so important to us, I think it comes from a place of being in a position where we were not helped —

Erica: Mmm —

Saul: And we really could have used some help. And I think that like, we don’t - like I feel like I don’t ever want that to happen to somebody in my purview. I don’t want them to feel that way - I know that I can’t control everything, but if I can help in any way - or, I want people to know that help is available.

Erica: Available Available to them, absolutely - yeah. So, today’s episode is called Being a Trans Music Therapist. Can you share with us a little bit of your story, to the extent that you feel comfortable?

Saul: Sure. Um, so I came out as trans when I was I believe 24 - and I’m 41, so this was like 17 years ago. So, because I’m 41 - I love hearing people’s coming out stories, and I’m realizing, because I’m getting older, that mine is like aged a little bit. And mine is different than like people - everybody has different stories, but mine is generationally a little bit different. And so I just want to put that into context a little bit. Um, now, my parents and I - and my family like have a really great relationship. We’re close - uh it hasn’t always been that way. And so, I don’t want to disparage them when I might say things about them that happened in the past, ‘cause they weren’t as understanding. We’re past that now, but it has been a lot of time, and a lot of work, and a lot of tears, and a lot of misunderstanding. So I just want to say that.

Erica: Mmm.

Saul: When I was growing up, I didn’t even know that like one could come out as like gay or like lesbian or - let alone trans, or anything like that. I had no idea that that was an option.  And then I went to college, and I was like, oh yes, this is a real thing, and um maybe I am a part of that real thing. So um, it was sort of like my first sort of coming out as a lesbian. Um, but that was like not really the whole case, you know, and it - it felt like it was supposed to be like the whole case.

And so I - I had this like extra feeling of like otherness um until I got a little bit older, and I started to read, you know, like on the internet and LiveJournal and stuff like that about people who were trans - and people who like were successful, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it wasn’t like a sensational piece that I was like reading - these were like real people’s lives on the internet, who were like leading successful lives, and being trans, and they had community, and they had people who loved them. And it opened up a possibility to me. And at the same time I was like - you know, in hindsight I can explain to you, but at the time, of course I didn’t know. And I was just very very, very very unhappy.

I got through uh my undergrad degree barely - I’m done with music, I hate academia/it means nothing/nothing means anything. And I was like just so depressed. And so - and then I started to like hear about being trans.

And I sold all my stuff and I moved to Huston. And I - like almost immediately - started to research like clinics where I could go and talk about being trans so that I could like figure out what I do about that, and how I could like sort of access that part of me. I was able to get testosterone and therapy. I got a job. I stayed at that job - it became important to me. Because I became important to me. I was starting to like, you know, have these things happen that never happened to me since I’d kinda gone through adolescents.

Erica: Mmm.

Saul: I remember - at that time - having to sort of like verbalize that. Like being like, no, this - this has been a game changer in my life. This is - I wouldn’t be alive - you know, it would have - I was going down a - a very self-distructive path. It just … So that informs everything, you know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah.

Saul: I think so much about - people are kinda like icebergs - and like you can only see like the very like tip. And there’s this huge - like the rest of it - like 93% of it underneath the surface that is way more important. And I feel like - like my own story revealed that about myself to me, and so I attempt to see that in everyone. Whatever - whatever the surface is, there is so much more that you don’t know. It may not be that they’re trans, but everybody has things, you know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah.

Saul: They’re way more than their symptoms, or like whatever it is that like present from the outside. There’s just so much more. I know that myself because I’ve lived it. And so, it informs sort of like how I interact with the world, and what I expect of people.

Erica: Yeah, I definitely heard the iceberg analogy before. And I’m curious - because I know you’re doing your internship right now in memory care —

Saul: Mmhmm —

Erica: With Kaylee - and we’ve had Kaylee on um last summer, she’s great. Um —

Saul: Yes, she’s awesome.

Erica: Yeah. And also, in another episode we did with our music therapist, Vee, on staff - it was called “Being a Queer Music Therapist” - they were talking about lineage in the queer community —

Saul: Mmhmm —

Erica: And um, just because you’re older than us —

Saul: Mmhmm —

Erica: There’s about 10 or 12 years difference in age. And then, also, because you work with the older end of the lifespan, I’m just curious about like: what are your thoughts on like - we’ve talked about on the podcast how the queer - queer being like the umbrella term for the whole community. Um —

Saul: Right. I think that’s a great concept.

Erica: Yeah. That can get erased - there’s a lot of erasure that can happen in memory care settings.

Saul: Oh man. Yup.

Erica: Um, because they start being really pathologized by age and by diagnoses. Yeah, how do you like maybe navigate that? What is that like?

Saul: So that’s a really great question. Um, the question about like sort of the importance and the identity of people who are sort of in memory care, both like their own queer identities, if that’s like there, um and my own. And like - and which are 2 separate things, but then - then of course there’s like the interaction of like those identities. Um, first I just wanna say: I talked to Kaylee a little bit about this in supervision, and I’ve also talked to Vee, because I was - because I was really interested to sort of like find what both of their um thoughts were, and sort of like guidance for me. Because I’ve never - I’ve never been an intern in any other weight, shape, or form, so I’ve never really - I’ve never had to navigate this space before. I’m only like 2 months in, so I will have more autonomy as this sort of goes, but because I’m like kind of still in the beginning, and these conversations that I had at the beginning - my mindset is very much… Because I am older and because I am male, and my bosses and my supervisors are female - and younger than me, I wanna be um like a hundred percent on point with my respect. And not like overstepping my bounds, and I don’t wanna do something like um in a way that certain cis guys have made it challenging.

Erica: It sounds like - and let me know if I’m not understanding properly or accurately - that what you’re saying is that: you’re aware of the privilege you hold. And that if your colleagues are any gender that’s oppressed, that you are wanting to consistently assess so that you are not - as much as reasonably possible - accidentally um contributing to that gender oppression. Is that accurate?

Saul: That is exactly what I - I’m trying to say! All of that total about identities. So I - I went to Kaylee - I’ve gone to Kaylee and Vee - you know, Kaylee said, if you think it’s appropriate, and you think it’s something you want to do, feel free to - to come out, you know, as trans to - to whomever you want - staff, residents, - I am here, and we are here, to support you—

Erica: Mmm —

Saul: Whatever that may look like, whatever you may need. She gets that it can be dangerous, you know, to - to disclose somebody, and that person doesn’t know. That can be pretty dangerous. Um, so I took that information and then I talked to Vee. I had some thoughts and  I was like, you know - and not every memory care facility is the same. And this particular facility that we’re at is pretty high acuity. High acuity means that they need more support —

Erica: Oh, okay —

Saul: Low acuity means that they need less support basically.

So their higher acuity - at this particular aegis than at a lot of other places. And so, I had the thought that if I came out as trans, I might have to like, not only sort of define what that is, but I would have to do that over and over again, and sometimes in the same sentence. So I had - had a conversation with Vee, where I said, is it possible, if I were to do that, I would just be retraumatizing myself? And they said absolutely - I mean, not everybody - everybody’s different. But yeah, I mean, that’s a huge thing you could be doing, and - and at that point, for whom would you be like coming out for - is it for you - is it for - you know.

And so I had like all these thoughts. Um, and that’s kind of where I’m at at this moment. Where I’m at, are - there - there is at least one person their with um a queer identity - one of the residents, pardon me. And um - and I have been sort of like listeing to things that - that Vee said about queering, and um sort of how to make things more accessible. And this has been like a challenge that I’ve sort of given myself in my head —

Erica: Sure —

Saul: Like, how - how can we make queer like more accessible - sort of for - for these people, some of whom are not really pro-queer to begin with, you know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah.

Saul: There is some of that —

Erica: Their socio-cultural stuff from their generation, from where they grew up, that is part of their lived experience, and that impacts their world view, and etc. I do want to pause just really briefly ‘cause you mentioned the word queering. And if there’s anybody listening that is confused about what is queering, or what we mean, I really encourage you to go back - we did a whole episode about this in June of 2020, and it’s literally called queering, like that’s the title of the episode. That might help your understanding. You’re welcome to pause this episode and go back, or just continue listening and just go back and listen. But that resource is available to you. Sorry - so anyways, keep going.

Saul: No no no, that - that’s perfect. Because I had never heard the term queering I think - I don’t think before I listened to that episode so [chuckles] which - which for me was like maybe a month ago at - at the most, so - now I’m using it like I’m - I’m all that. I don’t have solutions yet, but I’ve given myself a challenge to sort of like figure out um ways to support his identity. Uh, this is - as you know, this generation - this is, like you said, there is a whole socio-cultural sort of realm that defines all of us, but especially certain people when they get into advanced stages of dementia. That is a part of their personality that’s stuck. You know, we don’t get to choose what sticks, you know, unfortunately in our identities the older we get. You know, they - they sort of become a part of us. Anyway, I have some ideas that I - I would - I would really like to run by like Kaylee and the team: like maybe doing something for pride week. You know, just sort of bringing - putting rainbows on things - you know what I mean, like - during corona virus, at this time, we don’t use a lot of different instruments, but, you know putting rainbows on… Those are not like the solutions, but like, I’m - I’m constantly sort of like trying to come up with ways to support them - and myself -and everybody else who’s there who’s queer that I don’t know, you know.

Erica: Yeah.

Saul: I wanna give them a space to be who - who they are. Whoever that is, you know.

Erica: Mmm, absolutely. We are coming to the end of our time for today - it’s been such a good conversation. So, in wrapping up, what have you learned in your process that you want to offer to others?

Saul: This is what I’ve learned in my process - of coming out of the closet, and of like coming into sort of a process of music therapy: is that your heart knows what it wants to do. It knows it. It might be covered in layers of junk on top of it that’s distracting you, and making you do other things, but your heart knows. And the quicker you can access what your heart is telling you - and really believe it - the quicker you can get on with your life and be happy.

Erica: Mmm.

Saul: It’s taken me a really long time to figure that out. And I promise, if you do what you think is right always, you’ll never have trouble sleeping - because of that.

Erica: [Chuckles] There might be other reasons —

Saul: [Chuckles] Right —

Erica: [Chuckling] But Right, but that’s not one of them. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Saul. I so appreciate your time.

If you would like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam - C as in cat - Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). On our website, you can also find transcripts for every podcast episode. We encourage you to connect with us on social media - never miss notifications for new episodes and other projects.

Thanks again to Saul for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.

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