Ep. 051 | Gender Affirming Voicework
Today, we chat with guest, Maevon Gumble, a board-certified music therapist, about a new music therapy method that they developed and its application.
LEARN MORE
Becoming Through Sound - https://becomingthroughsound.com/
Gender Affirming Voicework in Voices Journal
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we chat with Maevon Gumble about gender affirming voicework, a new music therapy method they developed.
Maevon is a Masters level board-certified music therapist pursuing licensure as a professional counselor. They engage in psychotherapy, music therapy, and gender-affirming voicework services through their private practice, Becoming Through Sound. Maevon is committed to engaging in clinical work that is grounded in systems-based, resource-oriented, trauma-informed, and social justice perspectives.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Well, welcome, Maevon, to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
Maevon: Yeah, I’m glad to be here.
Erica: I am glad you’re here also.
[Maevon laughs]
Erica: Um, so let’s just start right off the bat - the usual question: how did you originally become interested in music therapy? What is your story?
Maevon: Yeah. So I actually started off pursuing music education and gender studies before realizing I don’t really wanna be, you know, doing music with - and being in music with people in that way. Um, ended up taking an intro to music therapy course as well at the same time as a feminist research course —
Erica: Oh wow —
Maevon: Yeah - which lead me to exploring feminist music therapy, which lead me to Slippery Rock University, in Pennsylvania.
Erica: Yeah.
Maevon: Um, and uh ended up, you know, transferring there to study with Susan Hadley and Nicole Hahna, and loved it - and didn’t leave. [Chuckles] Um and stayed - stayed there for my masters too. And yeah, so that’s - that’s kinda where I ended up.
Erica: And so, I had the honor to read some of your writing, and so I know a little bit more about your story than maybe some of our listeners do. Um, but in the process of your masters work or your graduate work, to me, it read like you kind of stumbled into —
[Maevon laughs]
Erica: Gender affirming voicework. It wasn’t something you set out to do, but something you discovered along the way?
Maevon: Yes. It very much was —
Erica: Can you tell us, um, especially for listeners that maybe have no idea what I’m talking about, what is gender-affirming voicework —?
Maevon: Yeah —
Erica: Can you give us a brief introduction?
Maevon: Yeah. So um, in my - in the midst of my graduate work, realized - or came into my gender, I guess I should say - um as a nonbinary trans person, and was like, I have a complicated relationship with my voice. I ended up wanting to explore my own relationship with my own voice, um, which lead to, you know, my thesis being what it was - exploring what would gender-affirming voicework look like in a music therapy space. And, from there, it’s just been kind of exploring that as I start to work with clients - and and kind of continuing to engage in this work, and continuing to learn.
I think it’s hard to really find a solid definition of it, partly because I want to avoid that [chuckles]. Um, but also I think the work can look really different, depending on what people are wanting to get out of it, and what experiences they’re coming with, and also their level of musicianship. Um, that kind of changes the, you know, work that we do. But, I think the one thing that I have gotten pretty consistent at saying is that it’s about supporting folx with accessing and embodying a more affirming voice - um specifically through music um and through singing. Um, depending on a person’s goals, those could be like: accessing that affirming voice, and staying within the music space - if they’re wanting to work on their singing voice. And/or kinda shifting from that singing space back into speech - holding onto some of those qualities if they’re wanting to to work with that. So it could - it could look a little bit different, depending on what folx are wanting, but I - the - one of the big pieces is kind of leaning into that liminal space between song and speech. That’s where we kinda work with things and kinda merge and not have this disconnect between speaking and - and song.
Erica: Yeah.
Maevon: Yeah. Talking about it - it going between this like singing and speech part of your voice - how do you describe? The like multi-disciplinary connections within the support and um music therapy and speech and language pathology.
Maevon: Yeah. Well, 1: I do talk with folx about how I’m not a speech language pathologist/I’m not a voice therapist - like holding those boundaries. Um, which I’ve kinda run up against myself of like, I can’t do this work/I’m not trained in that. I’m like, no, slow down. I am a musician, I am a uh trained vocalist, I am a trained music therapist, and I am a person who is - has lived experience as a nonbinary trans person - and I’ve also thought a lot about my own voice and gender - so I can slow down. But I - I present to them that, and also kinda say that I work within my frame of - or my scope of practice.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: So I’ve had folx say, I’m not necessarily as interested in the music piece. And I’m like, I think I have to refer you to a speech language pathologist. Like, we find something through your singing voice, and through toning, and through these different music experiences to get to a space you wanna be, and then from there, maintain that quality of sound, or that pitch - whatever it is back into speech. But I - I often say that it kind of - session can be a lot of different things. Um, it might be what you might experience in like a music singing lesson - it also might be what you would experience if you were to go to a speech/voice therapy kinda session um to a certain extent, not really but kinda. And then it also might be similar to what you’d experience in a music therapy session - specifically with like vocal psychotherapy or like —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: Like the mental health side of things. Um, and that’s because this work can dive into, you know, different ways of working depending on what a person needs. Like, for example, a lot of the folx I work with end up coming to me wanting to do more vocal function work - kind of the way they’re physically using their voice and shifting that - um, particularly around gendered aspects of sound. Or, you know, working to - you know, maybe they already had a pretty strong um singing voice and they’re wanting to get back into that, um but they were on testosterone, and um that’s really impacted the way they’re able to use their voice. So it might be like trying to relearn their voice in a way.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: So like I said, the work can look really different in that capacity. Um, and it also could be, you know, folx coming in for more like psychotherapeutic kinda stuff - um, although, again, most of my folx do come wanting to do more kinda vocal function-based work. But some folx do wanna - come in wanting to explore, you know, their relationship with their voice and their body, their sense of embodiment with their voice, their um relationship with their voice, their ability to use their voice in relationship to other people without like shutting down or like getting small or like tightening up or like —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Maevon: Um, those are like the two extremes, but I firmly believe that they both come into the work, regardless of where, you know, a person starts. Um, just because I um - the voice is so personal. I - I can speak for like my experience of being in a voice lesson - and like ,there’s been times where I’ve cried in the middle of a voice lesson because, like, it - you can just so easily get into the emotions there. And so, I - I um - I don’t know, I think there’s - within this work, I think we can kinda step into both, so…
Erica: Um, you had mentioned the gendered aspects of sound —
Maevon: Mmhmm —
Erica: I’m curious, how can gender affirming voicework support the disruption of how gender is understood?
Maevon Yeah. Um, I love this question. A lot. Um, ‘cause uh it made me think about a lot of different things, in terms of gender, but also in terms of like voice disrupting ideas around gender, and voice disrupting ideas around voice, too. So, I think, in some ways, this work focuses on both, you know, conforming to gender norms in a lot of ways. For some - for like folx if you know are wanting - or, you know, needing, for safety things - to pass - quote pass - um as the gender they identify as if they’re able to do that - I mean, I - me as a nonbinary trans person, that’s not something I think I’m ever gonna run into, but - I would love to have a world that that’s the case, but.
Yeah, but I’ve been working with folx who um, you know, as trans women or trans femme folx, um they’ve been navigating really really strong internalized cis-genderism or cis-sexism and heterosexism - um of like wanting to access this higher part of their voice, um but there’s been so much internalized messaging about, you know, the gay male voice, and - in quotes, the gay male voice - um and the stigma around using those voice. I mean, like, I’ve known many people who’ve been labeled lots of really derogatory names for using that voice. And, so although many of the folx - many of my - trans femme folx that I work with, like they want to step into that space, and we like butt up against this just internalized stuff of like feeling ridiculous. But then, when we actually access that space, they’re like, yeah, I want that! And then, it’s just this like internal conflict that we just need to kinda sit in, and like kind of try and unpack a little bit. I was thinking about that with like, how do we disrupt gender? Like, we’re disrupting it internally, and then by using our voices in other spaces - whenever we find that voice - you know, we’re disrupting those systems like, you have to listen to me use this voice. Like um, yeah, so I’m thinking about that.
I’m also thinking about how um - and I butt up against this personally of like, this work is not just for trans and nonbinary folx.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: It’s for cis folx too. Um, and there’s an article by Randi Rolvsjord and Jill Halstead that talks about um work with, presumably, a cis woman. They don’t name her as trans, so she’s probably cis. Um, but in that work, this woman had a really low speaking and singing voice, umm was dealing with depression/anxiety related to her voice, and tried to change her voice - wasn’t really getting anywhere. And like, this was in a music therapy space of using music to kind of support a relationship with that. Like, this is not just for trans and nonbinary folx. Again, this is presumably a cis woman - likely it is a cis woman if it’s not explicitly mentioned, which - it’s a problem. But anyway, [chuckles] but like yeah, so I’ve had to kinda unpack my own assumptions. Like, this work can disrupt ideas around like cis experience of - of gender.
Erica: You were talking about the breadth of what voicework can look like and what that means for the person that is coming to you. And um it was reminding me of like the importance of the relationship that you’re cultivating with that person.
Maevon: Mmhmm —
Erica: Because you’re dealing with the voice, which is very personal to a person. And then you’re dealing with their gender identity, and probably the intersection of other identities that are coming with that person —
Maevon: Mmhmm —
Erica: But that is just increasing the level of trust and safety that needs to be felt in that quote unquote space - because we’re virtual —
Maevon: Yeah —
Erica: Space looks different than it does usually, but… And so, I was wondering, how does the recognition of your intersectional identities then contribute to building that trust within your therapeutic relationship?
Maevon: Yeah. Um, well first, I think - well, I - I should say, I work - all - all of the folx that I work with are trans, or nonbinary, or gender nonconforming. So I will say that - I have not stepped into working with cis folx, although I would thoroughly love that - I think that would be a real joy. Um, but what I’ve noticed is just the aspect of shared identity is just - I don’t know. While it can’t guarantee safety, ‘cause we all mess up in our own way, and we have obviously intersections that come into play —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Maevon: That, you know, we don’t all come from the exact same lived experience. Um, yeah, I feel like that - the sense of shared identity helps to foster relationship. And to be able to like be a little bit more - more vulnerable - although, again, I can’t speak from, you know, the other piece of that of like not having that shared relationship. But um, I have noticed, though, that you know, with - with folx who have pretty similar lived experience as me, I do have to like really call into question, you know, am I making assumptions about what they wanna do with their voice, or like, if they, you know, know how to use their voice in the way that I’m assuming, or um the - I just have to really call in - into question my own assumptions around their experience.
The - this is making me think of like the collaborative part of this work. And I don’t know if I - this feels connected to this, and I’m - I’m hoping that it makes sense [chuckles]. So um, I really strive to be collaborative in the way we define what our goals are —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: In that it’s not like, um, okay, you wanna feminize your voice. If somebody says that to me, I’m like, okay, well what does that really mean to you? And not just saying, okay, I know from the literature that I’ve read/I know from the things I’ve learned that that usually means raising your pitch, it means shifting your resonance a little bit, it usually means changing some of the inflection and the way that you’re using your voice. Like, from what I’ve seen, it - it comes across as like taking a person from one box, and just forcing them into another box of like, this is what it means to do this —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: When that doesn’t feel um queer to me. That doesn’t feel like that’s embracing the complexity of like, maybe a person doesn’t wanna change their pitch and they’re just wanting to shift their resonance, or maybe they’re wanting to change their pitch, but they don’t really care if it’s a chest voice or a head voice. Yeah, so I really try to embrace this like collaborative space. Um, and also this space that challenges the - like the power dynamic of like I’m the expert, and I’m creating some kind of like change in you. I really engage in this work in a resource-oriented way, of like, we are not changing your voice, we are accessing something that’s already there - for - for vocal function-focused work, specifically.
Like um, oh my goodness, Lisa Sokilov. Um, she uses this metaphor for a house, which I have borrowed and tweaked a little bit, but I really - I really enjoy it. Um, she talks about the voice as a house, and um, I’ve been talking about it within voicework about like, we might live in the living room of our house for a while - a lot - most of our lives, and now we’re trying to explore the basement - my particular favorite place [chuckles] —
[Erica chuckles]
Maevon: Like going down to the basement, or going up to the attic, or going to the second floor, or going out in the living room, or um, doing - doing that kind of stuff. So um, the work isn’t about changing something, it’s about accessing something that’s already there - that we just might not have the tools to kinda get there yet - or the resources to get there. So - so I um - it’s about giving people those tools and those resources so they can navigate where ever they want in their house.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: Um, and about building versatility. So it’s not me like imposing this voice onto them. I feel like I got a little bit away from your question, but that feels so wrapped up in power and privilege, and like —
Erica: Yeah
Maevon: My role within that. And like, I’m not the one changing you, you’re the one - you have the resources. I just have my resources that I’m kind of bringing in and know about the voice in a collaborative way.
Erica: I really like - and really understand - that metaphor you’re using and really appreciate that. I - I feel like every start to my question is I’m just curious —
[Maevon chuckles]
Erica: Um, but I am curious. Because, we know trauma is stored in the nervous system —
Maevon: Mmhmm —
Erica: And the voice, being so personal in your body - being the instrument - what is the relationship between that and the voicework you’re doing? Does having trauma stored in your body present challenges then to accessing voicework?
Maevon: Yes. I firmly believe that everyone who comes in to work with me is dealing with gender trauma, at the very least —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Maevon: Like among other things. Um, whether you’re - I mean, again, I’m not working with cis folx, but whether you’re cis, trans, nonbinary, gender nonconforming, we’re all dealing with gender expectations and um have had to just navigate those, and - and - and to kinda figure out um our own gender and identity, and kind of what things we wanna - or not want to, what things we’re able to hold onto.
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: Um, and fit in with the world. Um, and I think that is inherently traumatic. Um, and what I’ve seen in like the work that I’m doing with folx is because - the voice is so - it’s so wrapped up in the body. Um, I start off with some kind of body warm up um and voice warm up to kinda just get into our bodies a little bit. And that sometimes is hard for folx. Myself included - like, when I was doing this, I like avoided doing that part of it just because I think it’s really uncomfortable. This is not to say that all trans and nonbinary folx have difficult relationships with their bodies - some don’t. That’s - that’s a completely valid experience. And, I - the majority of folx I’m working with are dealing with, you know, some kind of trauma.
Um, the voice itself. Like, using your voice in front of someone else, that is - that can be a traumatic thing too. Of like - I don’t know, it just brings up a lot - especially if, you know - sometimes I think dysphoria itself is trauma. Like we’re - we’re - we’re working with that inherently in this work of just being able to kind of explore your voice a little bit, and feel good about your voice to a certain extent - or comfortable enough to like dive into this work. But it - it does present obstacles.
And um, that gets into the - the holistic piece of like how we can step into so many aspects of this - you know, of this work. Of like, working on vocal function, and then all of a sudden, we’re dealing with anxiety. And, you know, in the same experience, we’ll go from working on breath support or something to okay, continue to work with your breath, but like, don’t voice any more. Just work with your breath and —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: Try and like regulate yourself, you know, so that we’re still in the experience, and we’re not like okay, all of a sudden it’s done and we can’t stay in it. But um, yeah, it’s definitely there - it definitely comes up in different ways.
Erica: Yeah.
Maevon: Yeah.
Erica: My mind kind of imagines, maybe in several years - like 10-20 years from now - that this method that’s developing sets a foundation, where - that has some like transferable principles —
Maevon: Mmm —
Erica: Or just the methodology, you could splice it and add in just a little bit of something else that’s happening in music therapy. Particularly because the voice is the body, and there’s so many people in the world that have body issues that are not related to gender necessarily, or they don’t know it’s related to gender, or - there’s a whole long long list. Um, and so, that comfortability between the like voice and body, and then how body impacts a whole bunch of different things, and… We just did an episode about eating disorders —
Maevon: Mmm —
Erica: And so that’s where my mind is like immediately going right now - like, well that has - I feel like it has some application. Bits and pieces of it could be borrowed. Um, but that’s not really a question that can be answered right now, but it’s just a curiosity that I have for later down the road.
Maevon: Yes. I see that so much. Our bodies are our identities in many ways, you know?
Erica: Mmhmm.
Maevon: So like, we - we can work with anything in that capacity. And um, it’s also - I haven’t talked about this piece of like, sometimes I’m working with folx with pairing a particular way of holding your body with a sound. So that when you’re moving about the world, and you can like quote step into that um way of holding yourself, that you’ve connected that already with a way of using your voice. So it’s like, it’s there already. So I - ah, there’s just so much there I feel like around the body - body aspects.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think you kinda like mentioned this super super briefly a little bit ago, but I wanna come back to it - the idea of how voicework and like queering work together?
Maevon: Mmm —
Erica: Um, and how does voicework queer the process of listening, and then what can we learn from voicework about how to listen more radically?
Maevon: Yeah. Um, I feel like that’s a thread throughout all of this. Like, in a nutshell, like queer listening is about thinking about um - particularly the voice, but I think this can apply to many aspects of identity - and kinda like what we were just talking about with bodies - like I think it’s relevant to a lot of other things. Um, but specifically with the voice, like it’s about paying attention - and really, really close attention - to where you are with your voice. Um, and I use that through uh Sanne Storm’s core tone that she’s talked about - of kind of like where is your voice in this moment. Like, [hums on a sustained pitch, approximately the same pitch as their voice while speaking] I don’t know if you hear it [hums again]. I’m kind of like right here [hums a slightly longer tone followed by a shorter tone]. Like where is your voice um and like, is that where you wanna be? Is that kinda where you want your - your home to be, the part - the part of that house that we were talking about?
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: Um, and kind of unsettling that to kinda get to where you wanna be. And also, [sighs] oh goodness, this brings up - it’s - it’s also the piece of like leaning into what feels good, but also trying to find some appreciation for the things that don’t feel good.
Erica: Mmm. What does listening radically like mean to you? Like what does that phrase mean?
Maevon: Listening radically, to me, means um my voice, regardless of how I voice, is how I identify.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: If I were to use a higher part of my voice - higher pitch/higher resonance - that is still nonbinary. Um, for some of the trans fem - trans women who come in to see me, um their voice is feminine even if they’re singing low - even if they’re in this rich resonance. That - that - to me, that’s what listening radically and - and listening with a queer process is. It’s not presuming, or assuming, or labeling a sound as one inherent thing, but like knowing that you can voice in whatever way, and it feels good. And that there’s also nothing wrong with wanting to conform to social norms - for either, you know, that’s what feels good for you and that’s where you wanna be, or there’s a safety piece. Um, I wish other people would listen radically is I think what I’m getting at with that.
[Maevon and Erica laugh]
Maevon: Yeah.
Erica: Cool. Um, just in wrapping up, ‘cause we’re coming to the end of our time, what have you learned in your process that you would want to offer to others?
Maevon: Yeah. Um, well, first I would say, while I feel confident in supporting other people, I’m still very much learning [laughs]
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: So - so like I’m still stepping into that, and trying to kinda parse my way through what it means to support folx in voicework, and to um just hold the complexities of people’s experience, and not get stuck in these like - doing psychotherapeutic work versus I’m doing vocal function work, but like, really holding the complexity of - of our experiences, and not shifting those out. Um, but I feel like what I would want people to most know is that um, I think it’s so important to engage in this work on a personal level, to some extent —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: Before doing it in your own - especially if you’re cis. I think it’s important that trans, nonbinary, gender nonconforming people do that too; I think it’s particularly important when cis folx - and I - I’ve talked to some - some peers, Braeden Ingmon and Kay Shackner - we’re doing a research project together —
Erica: Mmm —
Maevon: But we’ve talked specifically like about cis people supporting trans/nonbinary folx in this work, and just the tensions and the ideas of like… [sighs] I don’t know - if you’re not willing to explore your own voice and gender, I think you could cause a lot of damage through, I don’t know - I don’t know. It feels like really colonialist in my mind, of just like kinda coming in and like trying to fix people’s voice. And so, I - I would love to work with cis people. I feel like cis people should be engaged in this work.
Erica: Mmm.
Maevon: So yeah, that’s the thing I most want people to know - is just like, please engage in this work in some capacity before jumping in.
Erica: Where can people find you? Where are you at?
Maevon: So, my website is BecomingThroughSound.com. Um, and then my Insta and Facebook are both um @BecomingThroughSound.
Erica: So, thanks so much, Maevon, for doing this —
Maevon: Yeah —
Erica: I really appreciate it. All of your experience, and wisdom, and collective learning, it’s great.
Maevon: Awww, thank you.
Erica: If you’d like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam - C as in cat - Music Project dot org (SCMusicProject.org). On our website, you can also find transcripts for every podcast episode. We encourage you to connect with us on social media, @SCMusicProject. Never miss notifications for new episodes and other projects.
Thank you, Maevon, for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays]