Ep. 038 | Multidisciplinary: Music Therapy & Occupational Therapy
Today, we chat with guest, Katie Schripsema, a board-certified music therapist and occupational therapist, about how her multidisciplinary training informs her practice.
RESOURCES
Duke City Music Therapy Website
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about being multi-disciplinary: music therapy and occupational therapy, with board-certified music therapist and occupational therapist, Katie Schripsema.
Katie is passionate about exploring music and movement, supporting self-regulation, and promoting child development. She loves engaging individuals in active music making, combining her knowledge of sensory processing and motor development to uniquely support each child. Outside of work, she enjoys yoga, rock climbing, coffee, wine, listening to podcasts, and long phone conversations.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Well, welcome to the podcast, Katie. Thanks so much for being here.
Katie: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Erica: So, before we dive in, let’s just - the question I ask every music therapist that comes on - how did you originally become interested in music therapy?
Katie: That’s a good question. Um, I actually didn’t discover music therapy until I got to college for my undergrad. I started out as a flute performance major, and, you know, after about the first year or so, I just - I was having a lot of stress around performing, and I felt like, I’m not sure if this is really what I wanna do for a living for the rest of my life. And then, around the same time, I was working part time at a preschool, and - and I fell in love with working with kids. So, once I was there, they had a music therapy program at Michigan State where I was, and I decided, let me just take the intro class and check this out and see what it’s all about. And over time, it just felt like a really good fit. So, I’m really glad I still got the performance experience through college, but I’m equally glad that I added the music therapy degree.
Erica: That’s awesome, yeah. So, can you tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing now? I know you’re a music therapist, but you’re also an occupational therapist, and like, how did that come to be? Yeah.
Katie: Yeah, of course. That’s another [chuckles] path. I feel like there were a lot of circumstances that contributed to me making the decision to do my masters in occupational therapy. I’ll start with the - the professional reason - and feeling like I wanted to extend my education, and just thinking that, you know, I really wanted more understanding of the body and the brain in terms of working as a therapist. I felt pretty confident that as a musician, I would figure out ways to grow and incorporate that into that area, but it felt like the areas I still needed more education were more on that side of things - like the body and brain. And - and I just felt like OT was an interesting way to kinda continue that path.
More on the personal reasons: I was living in a place where there really weren’t many music therapists, and it felt like this - an OT degree was a way to kind of break into that field. And that I still, you know, still identified as a music therapist, but it would kind of open different doors. And, yeah, I - I think I’m equally glad that I made that decision, too, because I can definitely incorporate both professions in the work that I do.
Erica: Absolutely, yeah. And so, what is - maybe - because everything during the pandemic is a little loosey goosey —
Katie: Mmhmm —
Erica: Uh, can you maybe - if you have work that you’re doing right now - tell us about that? OR the work that you were doing just prior to the pandemic?
Katie: Yeah. Okay. I’m working as an occupational therapist in early intervention um with a nonprofit called Children’s Therapy Center, and then I’m also working as a contract music therapist with Life on Music, which is a private practice. Uh, so I definitely wear an OT hat a little bit more in the OT role, and the music therapy and that in my private practice role. But there is a lot of overlap, and I would say I - I do some of the same interventions or same activities, because music is so engaging and so important in working with kids.
Erica: Yeah. So, how young are the kids that you’re working with?
Katie: Um, in my OT job, early intervention is really set up for birth to 3. Because of the pandemic, we’ve actually kind of extended our work, so we’re actually able to continue with kids past their 3rd birthday. But they’re still in that range - 0 to 3. And within that role, the parents are kind of equally a part of the therapy - I would say that they’re - they’re just as much our clients as the kids are. So there’s a lot of parent coaching - kinda looking at how - how do we help the parents support their child and - and um promote their development, or wherever - wherever they need a little extra support.
Erica: Okay. And how do you describe your therapeutic philosophy with these 2 different - or not - yeah, they’re different - modalities of doing therapy? I’m curious about how that impacts how you practice.
Katie: Yeah. I think I’ll answer this kind of in 2 parts. [Chuckles] The —
Erica: Go for it —
Katie: When I - when I finished my music therapy internship, which was several years ago, I remember we were kind of assigned to sit down and write our therapy philosophy. And at that point, I wrote it out thinking of, okay, my philosophy has 3 components: the music, the therapy, and the relationship. The music being such an important part of the process - and that the music you use and create is definitely part of the outcomes, and setting the mood, and setting the motivation for therapy. It also is so communicative - so that music is a huge part of it. Then, I think of the therapy, I’m kinda thinking of, where is the individual that I’m working with, and where do we want them to go? Like, how can we help them grow, or work on the things that they wanna work on, or maybe work on things that are a little bit challenging for them, or how do we build on um their strengths, and their passions? And then, the last one is the relationship, and I think that’s so important in therapy - is just the work that 2 people do together. Um, and they have - they have an influence over each other - I’d say my clients influence me, and I hope that I have [chuckles] like a positive influence on my clients.
SO I’d say, that was kind of my philosophy leaving my first education as a music therapist. And then, more recently, I read something - I was reading something on sensory processing, and I just loved the way they summed it up. And it - it kinda described like, the first thing that should happen in therapy is just making sure that individual is regulated and kinda calm and alert - ready to learn. And then the second piece would be are they connected socially? That kind of a - similar to that relationship piece - is there a connection and is there communication flow happening between the 2 people. Um, and then the last thing was kind of, you know, addressing sensory processing for - that’s that therapy - what’s next / what are we wanting to work on?
And so I like those 2 trains of thought. Like, the one is more a guidance of, okay, I’m gonna start with regulation, then social, then whatever it is - whether it’s motor skills or communication skills. Um, but then, on the sideline, I’m still thinking of all those components: how do I make sure the music is meaningful, how do I make sure the therapy is meaningful, and like, really focusing on a strong relationship as well. That’s kind of a lot, but I think both of those mindsets kind of guide my work with individuals of all ages.
Erica: Absolutely. And that’s - that general framework you’re describing is very transferable across the lifespan. It’s not like you can’t use that with older adults, or teenagers, or yeah.
Katie: Yeah, exactly. And I think - you know, I’ve worked with parents where they also need to be regulated. So [chuckles] even though we’re focusing on their 2 year old child, if the parent comes and is feeling really flustered, sometimes it’s most helpful to just start there too: how do we make the parent comfortable in this space.
Erica: Mmm. Absolutely. Yeah. So we talked about the disciplines as 2 separate entities - I’m curious about how you weave them together? How do you integrate the 2 different disciplines?
Katie: That’s a good question. I’d say there is a lot of overlap, and it’s probably something I’m constantly thinking of myself. Like, how are they separate? How are they the same? How do I move between one or the other, depending on what setting I’m working in? But I’ll just - maybe I’ll talk about some of my favorite interventions that kind of bring in both. One thing that I felt like a got such a better understanding of in my OT education was just the power of rhythm, in terms of organizing the body. SO, as music therapists, we use rhythm in music all the time, and we see the powerful effects, but I think the OT side of it just helped me understand why.
And so a lot of times with my work with kids, I’ll see they just appear unorganized, and it’s just hard to do anything - or engage with anything - because they’re just moving from one thing to the other - their attention’s just bouncing. One of my favorite interventions is just to use like a big yoga ball, and have the child bounce up and down, um, and I’m providing the music on the piano that really matches their motion. So, as they’re going down on the ball, you hear that on the piano - they’re kinda going up and down, up and down. And sometimes we just do that for several minutes just to try to organize the body - like integrating what they’re feeling on the ball, um what they’re hearing on the piano, um even kinda what they’re seeing as they move up and down. Just is a really clear way to help them organize. And it’s amazing to me how, sometimes if we just do that for a few minutes, they’re so much more alert and ready to do something else - when we do something maybe a little more challenging or a little more active. And so that’s one way that I just incorporate it.
And I - I’d say, too, just as an OT working with little kids, I’ll encourage parents, let’s just get your kid and rock them. And let’s sing to the songs and help them to organize that way when they’re upset, or when they’re - yeah, just having a hard time regulating their own body, let’s help them using rhythm. Yeah, and one other of my favorite things to do kind of in the music therapy realm um is using a drum set. Because I think - 1, it’s so motivating, right? [Chuckling] Like what kid doesn’t see a drum set and just wants to go to town playing all the sounds? Um, and the drum set’s so cool because it - it uses 2 sides of the body, and so then we’re really working out those like bilateral coordination skills. But I found it’s also really cool to um bring in like vision - and label each drum maybe with a shape or a letter, um and kind of have them look up down between a visual. Like music - and then look down at the drums. And then how do we - how do I add some piano music and see if they can match my beat.
So I would say those are all interventions that music therapists might use, and I’m just kinda bringing in what I’ve learned about sensory processing - what I’ve learned about the progression of development of different skills - and kind of structuring my interventions that way.
Erica: Sure. That makes a lot of sense. I’m imagining that your OT training would be very helpful if you were working also with somebody that had like a neurological disorder like Parkinson’s that’s a movement disorder. Also, there’s so many different applications um for that connection between body and brain, and like the bioscience of what’s happening, and then adding music to that and integrating the two.
Katie: Yeah, definitely. I [word inaudible] both professions - both music therapy and occupational therapy are such broad professions. Like, depending on who you’re working with and where you’re working can really change what it looks like. And I’ve always kind of specialized and been most interested in working with kids. But you’re right: there’s a whole world you could continue to research and study out there on like, how do we work with this population and yeah that music and movement?
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. When you’re working with other OT professionals, what’s the response - in terms of like your MT training - or music therapy training. Do they - do you like teach them like some things that they can use in their sessions, or…?
Katie: Yeah. It’s - I’d say it’s pretty mixed. Sometimes I get the response of like, whoa, that’s cool - we love that! Um, ‘cause they use music too, and they kinda see the - the power. But I definitely come across people that are kinda like [sarcastic chuckle] oh, that’s cool. Like, one time, I had somebody on the OT side that said, oh, you call yourself a music therapist? And - and I had to explain like, well, I’m - I’m certified as that too, and it is an established profession, even if it’s less well known.
And I think - yeah, I think it’s just so important for music therapists to clearly articulate how we’re different. I heard an OT once say - she was talking about recreation therapists, but she was frustrated that they were working on ADLs - or activities of daily living. She’s like, oh, they don’t - they don’t have education and training to do that. Um, and then I thought, well, that’s not true either. Like, as music therapists, we do have a lot of training to work in similar areas. So I think, as music therapists, it’s just getting really good at explaining like, we can work on those things, and this is how we do it. It might be a little bit different because we use music, um, but we still have a background and some training in those areas.
Erica: Yeah - still have the qualifications, yeah. When we’re thinking about the advocacy work that music therapists have to do, particularly in Washington State, that’s a big, big discussion we’re having - is like —
Katie: Mmhmm —
Erica: How is music therapy compatible with other, more traditional therapeutic modalities. And we’re not trying to take away anybody else’s like clients - there’s plenty of people that need support, and there’s not any shortage of like - you’re not gonna lose all your business because a music therapist decides to set up a practice.
Katie: Yeah - yeah. I - I understand, right, that no one wants their toes stepped on. But I think you’re right: there is plenty of work to go around, and - and just figuring out how do we work together, versus, you know, working in competition all the time.
Erica: Yeah. Do you have any specific thoughts on like how music therapists can better articulate about what it is they do, or just how they communicate with um these more traditional therapists - SLPs, OTs, PTs, etc?
Katie: I think it’s both important to kind of say, you know, maybe talk the lingo [chuckles] that some of the PTs, OTs, and speech therapists use. I mean, really being intentional about the work we’re doing, and like, yeah, maybe we are working on these type of motor skills, or maybe we’re working on these - these communication skills, and this is what we see. But then, I think too, really, what sets us apart is how we use music. And I see a lot of OTs and speech therapists use singing, right, and they love to do it. And I think there’s nothing wrong with that - they should definitely be singing songs and enjoying it.
Erica: Yes, yeah.
Katie: Um, but then I think, as music therapists, we’re a little bit more specialized in using that music, in that we change the music to meet the need. So, you know, maybe we’re playing around with the speed of the music, or maybe we’re playing around with - even the words or the actions - not just singing “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star” as it is - we’re changing it up. Um, and really using the music to be the communicator, or um to be the - uh - I don’t know, the thing that grabs their attention. Or to even indicate how fast they’re moving - or the ways that they’re moving their body.
And so I - for me - and I know music therapists do work so differently too. But for me, that’s really where I think the difference is. Is like, I’m using music as my tool, um, and I’m - I’m experimenting with how to change the music to make the therapy more effective.
Erica: Mmm, yeah. In your OT world, and maybe in other professional spaces, what are some of the misconceptions you hear about music therapy? We kind of already touched on this, but I’m curious to explore this a little further.
Katie: Yeah. I think - I think maybe some of the con - the misconceptions is that it’s just someone with a guitar and coming to sing to kids [chuckles].
Erica: Yes.
Katie: Um, yeah - almost like we’re just leading circle times everywhere. Which, it has - that has a lot of value itself, right?
Erica: Yeah, yeah.
Katie: But then thinking about well, it’s not just a circle time for circle time. We’re really gonna be looking at how do we get those kids to interact with each other, or how do we get them to stay engaged a little bit longer, or how do we um get really specific responses from each kiddo - on an individual and a group social level. Yeah, and I think - I think some of the differences is just thinking like, we do have a therapy education. Like, we are trained to problem-solve and think about how to, you know, um task analysis. Like, what skills are we using. And I think it’s easy for me to forget sometimes too. Like, my OT training was more recent than my music therapy training, and both have pros and cons - or both have some really great strengths, and both, I think, are a little bit lacking. SO, I think, yeah, it goes back to really articulating what it is we want people to know about ourselves. Um, and then recognizing that everybody in every profession has more that they can learn and kind of expand upon.
Erica: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Um, because of your OT training, I’m curious if you get classified um just by like people in general as more of like a healthcare entity than - like if you introduce yourself as an occupational therapist versus a music therapist, what is like the general community response to that? Or how do you navigate that? Do you say you’re both, or…?
Katie: I - it depends where I am. Um I kinda hate that too, ‘cause I think um there are definitely times where I lead with I’m an occupational therapist because of the setting I’m in, and I - I almost need that person to see me in that role. Um, but I do think m personal identity - the music therapist is so strong I - I’m so passionate about the music side of things. Um, and then I’ve been in groups of musicians where I’ve lead with I’m a music therapist, and maybe later I say, oh, I’m also an occupational therapist. So, I don’t totally fit in either box. [Chuckles] I think, yeah. And it is - it is tricky. You’re right that OT is kind of seen more in the healthcare side of things maybe than the music therapist is, um, but again, also that depends on the setting too.
Erica: Totally, yeah.
Katie: If I’m in the hospital, people are definitely thinking that. But in early intervention, you know, it just depends on their prior knowledge of what occupational therapy is.
Erica: Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Kind of in wrapping up, do you have any closing thoughts? Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would want to share?
Katie: Before I moved to Washington and the Seattle area, I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I had a private music therapy practice called Duke City Music Therapy, um, and I loved the opportunities that created, because when you’re in private practice, you can kind of say yes to what you want to and just see what opportunities come up. Um, but I - I one time had a - a high school student that came, and she was interested in learning more about music therapy - she’d like to be a music therapist. And I think one of the questions she asked was um what should I do between now and then to really prepare? Or um, yeah, like what kinda books should I be reading, or like what kinda articles? And I - it really made me stop and think that I think as therapists, every experience we have is valuable in - in our therapy. Um, like, I think back - some of my most influential years were in a preschool when I was just a preschool aid, and I learned so much from those kiddos that definitely I use in my practice as a therapist now. Um, so, while we have to have labels, like occupational therapist and music therapist, I also think like, we all just wanna be practitioners - practitioners that are really good at what we do, and can bring in our personal experiences. So, um, sometimes for me it’s just, how do I meet this individual in the moment, and use the best tools that I have to kinda help bring them forward. Um, and it’s less so about the role [chuckles] that I’m in. Um, but it’s still I see where those things are important, but I think it’s equally important to kinda think about all of our personal experiences, and how those all contribute to the work that we do.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah - because we say frequently here at the Music Project that you bring all of who you are into every space —
Katie: Yeah —
Erica: That you’re in, and that is really what you’re speaking to - is you’re bringing all of your experiences —
Katie: Mmhmm, yeah —
Erica: Into things —
Katie: And can’t leave those behind, right - that shape you.
Erica: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, and the client is doing the exact same thing - that they’re bringing —
Katie: Right —
Erica: Everything that happened in that day into that space and, yeah.
Katie: And sometimes that means they’re not regulated, or, you know, and that first step is just like how do you help them have that day, whatever that day looks like.
Erica: Absolutely, yeah.
Katie: Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us today. I really - I really appreciate your time and sharing about what your experience has been like, and um, yeah.
Katie: Of course, yeah. I love - I love getting to know the other music therapists in the area, and - and hear about what you guys are doing too.
Erica: Awesome. So, a very last thing before we go is where can people find you? What are you up to? Um, plug away - anything you wanna plug.
Katie: [Chuckles] Um, I’ll just - I’ll give a little plug to um some videos that I’ve been making during quarantine. And these are not super professional or high budget videos, but it’s kind of a little series I’m calling Music for Home, that uses just household materials that kids could find in hopefully any household: so like spoons and forks and washcloths. Um, and so I have these - they’re - they’re all in one place on my website, which is www.dukecitymusictherapy.com, um you can also find them on social media - uh the Life on Music Facebook page is releasing them most often. So, um yeah, if you have kiddos at home that might enjoy that - otherwise, I know some - I like learning from other therapists and watching them in action, so I’m hoping too to just share some of my favorite songs and activities, and um yeah. Check that out if you’d like to do some music at home.
Erica: Very cool. I’ll put the links in the episode notes and on our website. If you wanna learn more about the podcast, you can go to S as in Sam C as in Cat Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). If you’d like to connect with us, we’re on all social media channels @SCMusicProject. If you want to follow along - receive notifications when new episodes are released, we encouraged you to subscribe or follow, depending on the app you’re using to listen. Also, if you’d like to support the growth of this podcast, we’d very much appreciate leaving a review, and sharing episodes with the people in your life. If you share it on social media, tag us so we can say thank you.
Thanks again to Katie for being here and chatting today. Thank you listeners, for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays.]