Ep. 037 | Being a Music Therapy Intern
Today, we chat with guest, Ally Perko, as she reflects on her internship experiences and breaks down some of the misconceptions about being a music therapy intern.
RESOURCES
Facebook Groups - Music Therapists Unite; Music Therapy Internships; Music Therapy Students/Interns
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about being a music therapy intern, with Ally Perko.
A musician since childhood, Ally has spent much time working with children and people with disabilities; during her undergraduate music studies at Roosevelt University, she found music therapy and decided to pursue it in graduate school. Ally attended the University of Iowa for her masters and equivalency degree in music therapy. Ally approaches music therapy with humanism, holistic care, and trauma-informed care.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Welcome, Ally to the podcast!
Ally: Thank you!
Erica: I appreciate you taking time out of your day and schedule to talk with us.
Ally: Yeah, I’m excited to be here!
Erica: It’s gonna be good. So, to help listeners get to know you a little bit better, do you mind sharing with us how you originally became interested in becoming a music therapist?
Ally: Sure. So, I grew up being in musicals, doing band, doing choir - all that kinda stuff. And I went into classical vocal performance in undergrad, and sort of realized that the culture wasn’t really what I was about. And I was more interested in community music making. So I was kinda lost for a little while, and I saw somebody from high school post something about music therapy on their Facebook. And I guess I’d sort of heard of it, but I didn’t know it was a real thing, so I looked more into it - I ended up talking to that girl for a while - and realized that music therapy was exactly what I wanted to do.
Erica: Super cool. It sounds like, in other conversations with you, plus this story, Facebook [chuckles] really facilitated your becoming an intern process.
Ally: [Chuckling] Definitely did.
Erica: Yeah.
Ally: It’s I guess non-traditional, but - as we’re all moving into a more media-driven age - I think it’s pretty fitting.
Erica: Yeah. Um, for listeners that maybe aren’t um students, professionals, or interns in the music therapy community, can you explain what is the process of becoming a board-certified music therapist?
Ally: Yeah, sure. So, board-certified music therapists must do at least 4 years of an undergrad degree, or, what I did, which is an equivalency degree. And then a 6 month internship, and then we take the board certification exam. And that’s - you know, you can be a board certified music therapist. So, the equivalency - because my undergrad degree is just a general music degree, I got I guess half or ish of a music therapy degree doing that. But then the equivalency degree goes further into specific music therapy courses, as well as psychology courses - counseling sort of stuff like that.
Erica: Mmhmm, mmhmm.
Ally: So, um, that’s what the equivalency degree does. And then, I actually got a masters and equivalency combined. So there are several schools where you can - you know, you’ve already done your 4 years as an undergrad - you wanna go into your masters degree, but you don’t have the undergraduate music therapy courses. There are plenty of schools that offer both music therapy equivalency at the same time as music therapy masters courses.
Erica: Mmm. So a music therapy intern is really in this in between stage —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: Where you finished your academic coursework, but you’re not yet uh legally allowed to continue to practice independently.
Ally: Right.
Erica: Yeah —
Ally: So, I’m not board-certified yet. And that’s what —
Erica: That’s next —
Ally: That’s what professionals are, but [chuckles] —
Erica: Yup [chuckles]
Ally: [Chuckling] I’ll get there.
Erica: [Laughs] Um, so, what happens during an internship? What does a typical day in the life of an intern include?
Ally: Yeah. So, there are some specific hours we have to get - I think it’s 1020 hours, which, when you break it down, it equates to 40 hours a week for 6 months. But that is very different for a lot of people. I know at SCMP it’s more like 7 months, and then, for me, since COVID happened, it’s gonna be more like 12 months [chuckles]. But it’s okay - it’s all about getting the hours and the experience, not necessarily the - the length - the whatever - it’s okay.
So my day is filled with specific things I need to do within those hours. So the hours are broken up into readings, and um doing a project, meetings - professional meetings and um like meetings with your supervisor. And then also clinical time - that’s when we’re actually with clients, and then also notes, and creating session plans. So yeah, it’s not just doing sessions with clients, it’s a lot of background work also.
Erica: Yeah. So, in your specific internship, uh what types of people have you been working with? Uh, what settings were you working in?
Ally: I work with so many different people at SCMP, which is Snohomish County Music Project. We contract out with a bunch of different groups within our community, and so I’m not just working with one specific group of people. I have worked with an LGBTQ teen group, teens who are experiencing homelessness, older adults with dementia, mothers who are in addiction recovery with their babies and toddlers, uh, we’re at a Boys and Girls Club, where we do guitar lessons, piano lessons, ukulele lessons.. And I’m probably forgetting some - [chuckles] there’s - there’s probably more.
Erica: That’s okay. There’s a lot of people, yeah.
Ally: I like that I work with babies all the way through older adults, yeah.
Erica: What are some of the misconceptions you either had or you heard about what it was like to be an intern?
Ally: I thought I would be with clients all the time. Um, I don’t know if I just picked that up somewhere, or if I talked to another intern who was with clients all the time, but that’s kind of just what I thought I was getting myself into. And there’s just so much more to it than only client time. Uh, one thing that I really appreciate about Music Project is that we have a lot of group staff time so that we really get to bounce ideas off of one another, and also get to know each other a bit; I really appreciate that there’s so many music therapists there that I can learn from.
Erica: Yeah. NO, we - it’s really important to us —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: To be actual community and not just co-workers. We make a point to build relationships, because relationships matter. And if we’re doing good in our relationships, then that has an impact on the people we work with outside our staff team.
Ally: I completely agree.
Erica: Yeah. Um, how does the internship prepare you to practice music therapy? What kinda skills are you working on - knowledge? I don’t know - any other components of what it means —
Ally: Sure —
Erica: To be a music therapist.
Ally: I guess that sort of goes with not all of your time is in sessions in music therapy. I feel like what I’ve learned a lot more of in how to be a music therapist is how to have the meetings with other people - more about like being a professional and not just learning and being a student. Community outreach and different things that go along with being an organization that I’ve gotten to see a lot of and experience a bit too. Yeah, there’s so many more aspects to music therapy than just doing the sessions, and I think that’s what I’ve learned a lot of in internship versus in school.
Erica: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, what are some of like the new ideas, or questions, or thoughts that you are having - well, you’re not done with your internship technically, but —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: You’re most of the way done with it. Like, what has that - was the experience been like for you?
Ally: I went into internship knowing I was interested in trauma-informed care, but not knowing that much about it. I did like a presentation on it like in school where I researched it, but I hadn’t really practiced it. And I have learned so much about trauma-informed care and come to see it in practice through so many of the different therapists at the Music Project. You know, there’s - a lot of our culture is based on making people do the right thing or act the right way, in one specific way - like sitting in class with your hands on your desk, youre not moving, you’re listening to your teacher. All of that can be well and good, but I’ve learned that it can also be kind of oppressive. That people learn in different ways and behave in different ways. It’s not necessarily good or bad - there’s a lot of gray area, where society can more grow and adapt to help everybody feel included, versus trying to push them into specific boxes. And I think trauma-informed care has really helped show me that, that we’re all different and have different needs - and have different backgrounds and experiences that make us who we are, and sort of guide what our needs are. I knew a little bit about that before, but not nearly what I do now.
[Ally’s dog sneezes in the background.]
Erica: [Chuckling] We do things very authentically at the Music Project, so sneezing dogs just comes with the territory [laughs].
Ally: [laughing] Okay.
Erica: You mentioned how you had studied trauma-informed care while you were in school and doing your coursework, and then the lived experience of what it means to practice that raised new ideas and questions for you —
Ally: Right —
Erica: And like brought it to a new awareness.
Ally: Right.
Erica: In what ways did your academic coursework support your internship experiences? In what ways did maybe internship feel like a whole new thing that you had to grapple with?
Ally: SO my school is very behavioral-based. Um, behavioral is a type of psychology but also can be a type of music therapy practice. And I am grateful for everything that I learned there - I learned so, so, so much in just 2 years [chuckles]. But getting actually into internship, and ah seeing just yeah, really the anti-oppressive way that Music Project really tries to practice was really eye-opening for me. I learned that some of what I learned in school doesn’t exactly align with my beliefs and um some of the beliefs I’ve - that have grown through Music Project, such as anti-oppression and trauma-informed care. But both internship and school - I mean, I wouldn’t know anything without either one of them.
Erica: Yes, absolutely. And I think it highlights - particularly the experience you’re sharing now - highlights how important it is, when you’re choosing an internship site, that maybe you look into how they practice, or what the therapeutic philosophy is. Because when you’re spending a thousand plus hours with your supervisor, with clients, like in a particular setting —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: That it’s going to influence you or going to impact you.
Ally: Mmhmm.
Erica: Um, and like it’s just something to be mindful of.
Ally: Definitely something I was mindful of. I looked at a bunch of different internship sites in the Midwest, where I’m from. But when I found Snohomish County Music Project and I looked at the ideals on the website - of community-based and anti-oppression, trauma-informed care, inclusivity, all that - I was so drawn to that. I knew it really matched well with my personal beliefs and my philosophy of music therapy. So… That’s why I traveled so far from home to go there, and I am so grateful that I did.
Erica: We’re so happy to have you as part of us —
Ally: Thank you —!
Erica: And we’ll be sad when you leave eventually. But um… I also - in this conversation about being mindful about what internship site you choose - want to acknowledge and recognize that not everybody has the same opportunity —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: To just choose a site.
Ally: Right, right.
Erica: Yeah.
Ally: I know, I’m very grateful for the help my family provided for me, and some money that I had saved up from working so much throughout college that I was able to travel across the country. I read - I think somebody just posted it on Instagram maybe - but it said that internships are so so privileged. Because, how are you expected to work for months on end - and this isn’t just for music therapy, just any field - work for months, relocate, and not get paid at all, or just get paid very very little. And it’s a very privileged opportunity for sure.
Erica: Mmm. Mmhmm, you’re absolutely right. And, I would also like to add another note that the Music Project has now found funding —
Ally: Yeah, I —
Erica: A stipend for our interns.
Ally: That helped a lot, too.
Erica: It does help. So, if you are listening, and thinking about doing internship with us, please let us know. We will send you the information packet with the stipend information and all that jazz. So —
Ally: Um —
Erica: As your internship progressed through the months, and we’re dealing with the pandemic, we’re doing telehealth, and it’s - it’s been a wild journey, what’s been like the emotional aspect to what internship is?
Ally: So yeah, I started out knowing that I had learned so much, and got good grades, and felt like a confident student in music therapy. But then, few weeks into internship, started feeling like I was questioning my beliefs, and my studies, and everything. You know, learning so - so much about anti-oppression and trauma-informed - that, you know, oh I thought I was being trauma-informed and anti-oppressive in the past. [Chuckles] Like, who am I now? I sort of had this uh moment of just questioning my own - myself. And then, couple weeks after that, started really feeling like I was a part of music project - like I knew uh what I was doing. And I could see that I was helping clients, but that they were helping me also. I was learning so much, and I felt really comfortable in the place that I was. That being said, every day is different, and every session is different, every meeting goes differently - you can’t really expect anything, as far as emotions go. Especially - sometimes - I mean, in therapy, you’ll get to a point with a client where you are having um really emotional experience, and then you go home, and that stays with you. SO, it’s sort of an emotional rollercoaster I guess, internship is [chuckles].
Erica: Yeah —
Ally: But yeah. I’m very happy to be on this rollercoaster.
Erica: [Laughs] That’s good. Um, what advice would you have for 2 kinda different groups of people? One group of people being students that are applying for their internships.
Ally: Mmhmm.
Erica: Then, also, for people about to begin with their internship.
Ally: Sure. For the students who are applying for internship… Don’t put yourself in a box [chuckles]. I thought, for the longest time, that I wanted to work in a pediatric hospital. And I had a little bit of experience in undergrad doing that - no experience doing that in grad school. I had applied to probably 4 or 5 internships that I did not get accepted to. They were all pediatric hospitals, and a couple of them reached out to me and said, we really loved you, we just went with somebody that had more experience in children’s hospitals. So, [chuckles] I had to take all of that rejection, and say, okay, what else do I want to Do? I searched trauma-informed care and music therapy, and found Music Project, So, that was the - after however many rejections I had, Music Project was the next one I applied to, and I got it.
So, I’d say, just, yeah, keep your options open. There are some people who know exactly what they wanna do, and they have a bunch of experience in it - okay, go for that. But, for those of us who have more than one specific interest in music therapy, don’t limit yourself to just one. ‘Cause there are so many internships out there that you might be really great at. For people who are starting internship soon - who’ve been accepted - who are waiting to go or virtually go - learn what you can about your internship site, but try not to go into - in with too many expectations. Practice, practice, practice - all of your instruments. [Chuckles] And get to know the people you’ll be working with. You know, as music therapy students, we learn, okay, what - what kinda music do I learn for an older adult in the south, who maybe likes country. Try to brush up on what you can. And yeah, just go in with an open mind, and be ready to learn - a lot - about yourself and about the field.
Erica: Yeah. I really like that be ready to learn. And don’t put to much pressure on yourself —
Ally: Mmm —
Erica: To have it quote unquote all figured out.
Ally: Mmhmm.
Erica: The point of your internship is to learn.
Ally: Right. It’s something, though, at my internship, that you all - you’re just so caring, and open, and accepting. And I do feel like I can make mistakes - I do feel safe there. I got really lucky with my internship.
Erica: That’s so sweet! Um, thank you so much for taking time today to just like talk about this and I hope somebody listening, whether you’re a student, or an intern, or just thinking about it, or maybe you’re a professional and just reflecting on your own internship experience. That this helps or encourages you in some way. Um, do you have any resources that you would like to share about anything internship related?
Ally: I do. So, for me, the internship uh application process was very daunting. In my school, we were taught to use the American Music Therapy Association website to search for national roster internships. I had known a couple of people who had done university-affiliated internships, which is what Music Project is. So, I applied to a bunch of national roster internships, didn’t get any of them, and, again, once I started opening myself up and opening my search up, I found more.
So I used a Facebook group called Music Therapists Unite, which, if you’re a music therapy student, you should definitely join. Um, it’s not just for professionals - students and interns can be a part of it as well. There’s a lot of questions about clinical questions, about different instruments to use, about cultural issues. There’s so many things that come up - different topics on that Facebook group - but one of them is internships. SO, I searched in Music Therapists Unite, trauma-informed internships, and found a post where somebody had asked a similar question scrolled down through the comments, and found Snohomish County Music Project. There’s also a group called Music Therapy Internships. And there’s also a Music Therapy Students slash Interns community. And, in those groups, you can commiserate with others about the woes of applying for internships, uh but you can also reach out and ask, you know, I really want to move to Seattle, does anybody know of anybody offering internships there? So, really using. The internet community can really help us find internships. And then, there’s also: something I started doing when I was looking through internships, and just searching a location where I knew I had family members or friends I knew I could potentially live with during internship. Then just Googling Kansas City music therapy, and then finding organizations, and going through and seeing seeing if they had any internships - because not all of them are on the national roster, so…
Erica: Those are great resources. I think there’s pros and cons about social media, but that’s one of the pros, I guess —
Ally: Mmhmm —
Erica: Is that you get to do virtual connections and - and all that stuff. Well, if you were listening and you want to know more about the internship at the Music Project, or you would like to get a copy of a transcript of an episode, or just check us out, our website is S as in Sam, C as in Cat, Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). You’re also welcome to connect with us on social media, we’re @SCMusicProject on all the platforms. You can also send us a message on social media and I can connect you with our internship director. The internship packet isn’t available on our website - you do need to contact us in order to receive the info packet. We have been receiving so many great messages about the podcast, and we just really appreciate the encouragement, and letting us share this space with you. If you want to follow along and receive notifications when new episodes are released, we really encourage you to subscribe or follow, depending on which app you’re using to listen. Also, if you’d like to support the growth of the podcast, we’d very much appreciate leaving a review - and then share episodes with people in your life. Also, if you share it on social media, feel free to tag us so we can say thank you.
So, thanks again, Ally for chatting —
Ally: Of course, thanks for having me —
Erica: You are very appreciated.
Ally: I’m so appreciative of you.
Erica: Thank you listeners for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays.]