Ep. 043 | What is Musical Identity?
Today, we chat with guest, Grant Hales, a board-certified music therapist, about musical identity and the factors impacting its development.
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about what is musical identity, with board-certified music therapist, Grant Hales.
Grant is a board-certified music therapist, practicing in medical, community, and school-based settings. He is the co-host on the podcast Clinical BOPulations, serves on the executive steering community of the Black Music Therapy Network, and is a contributor to the Tech Nook. Grant’s interests include community music therapy, music and technology, accessibility, and the development of musical identity. He has presented at workshops and conferences at various levels, on topics including community music therapy, the development of musical identity, and the impact of music therapy on that process.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Well, welcome to the podcast, Grant, thank you so much for being here.
Grant: Thank you for having me.
Erica: Absolutely. So, before we jump into the bulk of our conversation, a question I’m asking everybody is how did you originally become interested in being a music therapist?
Grant: That’s a fun story, um —
Erica: Tell me —
Grant: So, I was very involved with music all throughout high school, but before that, I was super interested in biology and sciences. And then, the more I explored um both like science and music, I wanted to be involved in some sort of helping profession, but as I went throughout high school I got more invested in music than I was in science - it just really fueled me a lot more. So I didn’t want to give up music - essentially is what kind of lead me to start searching for music options and careers. So I just kept searching for something that would allow me to kinda have that security and just I guess joy uh that music kept bringing me. I got lucky um when I did the PSAT, a few of the schools that I was interested in all had music therapy programs —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: So at the time, I was like, well, I guess I could look into this career called music therapy. And it sounded interesting, but I couldn’t wrap my head around it. And then when I was a junior in high school, I had a really transformative experience, myself personally, with a specific song that was playing - it kinda just came on the radio and it just felt like so many things were just happening in my life - and I felt a catharsis in that moment —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: Just because of that one song and that musical experience. And that is what started the more serious inquiry into music therapy - being able to have something that was so important to like my journey, and —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: If I could learn more about how this can be used in a way that could be helpful just made me more interested. And the rest is kind of history [chuckles].
Erica: Awesome, that’s super cool. So, today we’re gonna talk about musical identity. Um, when you think about musical identity, like what are some reference points you’re thinking of - what’s the paradigm?
Grant: Musical identity is an individual or group’s psychological basis for musical thinking, uh musical behavior, and musical development. There are identities in music - and those are different socially-defined aspects, different cultural roles, and other musical categories - and are also different identities that we associate with various types of music, and our willingness to associate ourselves with music or through music. For music and identity, that’s how we use music as a resource for developing other aspects of our own individual identities. SO that can be music helping us as a resource for helping us and explore gender identity, racial or ethnic identity, sexuality, and disability.
Erica: So what is the difference between identity in something and like preference for something?
Grant: So, there is a relationship and interaction between musical identity and music preference - they both can determine how we interact with music. The main difference is that musical identity focuses more on why music is important to a person or to a group, um and the role music plays in the person’s life - or the role that it plays within a culture. And music preferences are more about what we’re like and what we’re drawn to. So that can be artists, genres, different timbres and aesthetics, and thy’re also less committed to than musical identity. A good way to explain that is - or to conceptualize it - would be: you may have a favorite genre of music, and people, when they hear certain genres may associate that with you, but it doesn’t mean that you only like that genre of music. You can like different songs from different genres - but that might not be like the style of music that you would say really is a core component of who you are or represents who you are.
Erica: So, what are the factors that are influencing how your identity is shaped - especially as you go through the lifespan - I’m thinking about a really young child - a toddler, a preschooler. Even like elementary age students may not have agency over what music they’re listening to, and then that changes as you move through adolescence and then into adulthood So do we shed different identities as we’re moving through life? Not to say that those early things didn’t shape you or didn’t influence you, but what do you think about that?
Grant: There’s definitely - the pattern that you described - there’s definitely a relation to that. And I think that’s mainly because there’s a - there really is this chance of social exploration and, as we know in most cases, that is a time in your life where your identity is very much based on social interactions beyond just your immediate family. So I think that’s kind of where the very important stages of identity development kind of are discussed more so - and like a lot of the focus, I would say —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: Is placed, especially in like musical development in musical identity. When you think about the typical education program, a lot of times, once you get to middle school or high school in that age range, ensembles become a lot more selective
Erica: Mmhmm –
Grant: And it’s not just general music anymore. So that distinction, primarily like within identity in music - of I’m a musician - becomes really secure and solid around that age. And you are still doing that in relation to the other people that you are around.
Erica: Mmm. How does that inform what happens in the context of the therapeutic relationship? Because we say that we bring all of who you are into therapy - that includes the therapist and also the client or the client’s family. What does that mean for you?
Grant: I have so much interest in that question. And I feel like there isn’t really like a secure answer, in terms of what would be like a textbook definition or a textbook answer.
Erica: I don’t care about textbooks.
Grant: Okay, there we go.
[Erica and Grant laugh]
Grant: Um, in my personal experience, I would say, I think a lot of that really is a way in which we explore and validate each other’s humanities in that situation.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: Um, when we’re bringing ourselves into the therapeutic space, and if somebody is sharing music that is so important, and intimate, and integral to who they are, like your way of engaging with that music says a lot. And it sends a lot of messages in how you respond to it - and I think about that a lot. Because when I started my - actually this was right before I started my internship, I was really curious about this topic, because it really seemed like music therapists in settings - especially like working with disabled folx - were very much always bringing predetermined music constantly, and there wasn’t a lot of exploration.
Erica: Mmm
Grant: And, as we learn about each other, and figuring out how to communicate and what those things are, some really amazing things can happen. And I think that exploration is beyond what is typically expected of the beginning music therapist.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: Um, and just being able to understand and to really - to really be curious enough to learn about a person, really shifts a lot of the dynamics in a therapeutic relationship in a way that I think it’s a lot more equitable.
Erica: Mmm. What does that - the exploration in - I’m assuming kind of in early sessions, when you’re still forming the relationship - what does that look like? Does that mean asking the client to sh - to bring music to session? Is the therapist bringing stuff to session?
Grant: I think it’s a little bit of both. I’m hesitant to say it only happens in the beginning, because I feel, especially with folx that aren’t necessarily given the opportunity to express their agency —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: Um at the beginning of the relationship - you don’t have the capacity necessarily to support exploring as soon as you begin working. I also think too like the level of intimacy that this is may not always be appropriate as a start thing.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: My primary instrument was voice. And I firmly believe that your voice is so intimately connected with you, and the response that you get, especially in music programs - like the critiques that could happen - they don’t feel like instruments being critiqued as much as it is you being critiqued. I think, like having that perspective of like me being a musician and me being a singer, I had this understanding of myself and how intimate sharing music is - especially my music. So I don’t necessarily make that an expectation when I’m working with folx. I let them know that if they want to share, they’re welcome to, but the access that you grant me is all for you. And that may mean that some people may not explore in a way that they understand exploration to be.
Erica: Yeah. That’s a good point. Because the whole context of a person impacts everything, how does a therapist, to you, determine how much you need to know about somebody’s musical identity in order to be like trauma-informed - to like respect their culture?
Grant: First, and most importantly, I think that there needs to be an acknowledgement and awareness of the therapist’s own musical identity —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: And how that is impacting how they practice. It creates, in some instances, some type of — it can create a type of bias in how you present yourself musically.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: And, if you’re more secure in something, that might be what you’re always kinda falling back on, in terms of like your foundational ability and skillset. And that’s not necessarily a good or bad thing, but if you know that about yourself and you’re able to explore different things, um and you’re just aware of them, I think you - you’ll be more prepared to be able to receive that information about somebody else’s musical identity.
Erica: That makes sense.
Grant: Yeah. To follow up a little bit more too on the initial question, I don’t really know necessarily if you need to know everything about somebody’s musical identity, as long as you’re willing to be open, curious, and validating and affirming of that. Because identities are so much more complex than a check list. And they’re all so unique, and they can continue to evolve over time - and it could be changing during that relationship.
Erica: Totally, yeah.
Grant: Um, and it wouldn’t be - I don’t think it would be fair to expect something that’s static, as you’re trying to understand this about someone - uh, be it yourself as a clinician, or the people that you’re working with. I think just being able to really honor whatever it is that is being willingly shared in that space is more important.
Erica: Mmm. Can you tell us about the cultural factors that go into like that identity development?
Grant: So, music, in itself as a medium, reinforces a lot of cultural values through styles and sounds.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: A good example of this would be folksongs. They are - I call them musical snapshots. I don’t know if anybody else would agree with that term, but um, they really - like they carry a lot of cultural value and importance. And not only in terms of the lyrics that are sung or the images that may be portrayed in them, but also like traditional instrumentation, melodic styles, harmonic styles. Musically, it represents so much from specific cultures. And a more modern like contemporary example - I think the most perfect one is Beyonce’s Lemonade: the way in which how it has really showcased her experience as like a Black woman in America —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: And also like in different parts, like it showcases like regional aspects and national aspects. There’s a lot of different representation, um also like within cultural representation that may be unique to specific areas, and also just different professional aspects of her life as well. But yeah, there’s a lot of [chuckles] - there’s a lot of different ways.
Erica: Yeah. I think this kinda ties into something else that I wanted to ask is like: what are the assumptions about musical identity that could lead to oppressive practice? And I think - something you were talking about with Lemonade is that there’s a - a lot of representation between like Beyonce’s life and like these things that she’s experiencing - which, like she created the whole thing, so she can do whatever she wants, um - and she’s also Beyonce. But I think there’s a lot of room for anybody to do like an external evaluation of like what they think somebody is —
Grant: Mmm —
Erica: Or what they think they’re identities are, and then start assigning like factors to that person - or what types of music —
Grant: Mmhmm —
Erica: They think they like.
Grant: Yeah. And I think you really highlighted one of the - one of my main concerns when it comes to the assumptions. Is that there’s this very linear process of maybe historic - maybe it’s based on some type of reality - or based on some type of context or experience, but it’s really linear. And you’re basing it just off of something that may not even be true for the person that you’re interacting with.
Erica: Mmhmm —
Grant: Um, and those assumptions really limit your capacity to actually engage and have a meaningful relationship. Like if you don’t have a meaningful relationship, what’s - what’s the point of being in therapy? Like, I - I firmly believe that your relationships are the most important part, and it’s so vital in this. If I’m limiting a person that I’m working with, and I’m not being curious, I’m really not allowing somebody to be part of a relationship.
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: I have like forced them into a specific role and position - and like, that’s what you’re going to do. I’m not allowing for their creativity. I’m not allowing for their agency. I’m very much just reinforcing this hierarchical um positioning of like me being an expert over your experience, as opposed to co-creating something with who I’m working with.
Erica: Um, how do you see this played out in music therapy in disability?
Grant: SO, my interest in this started, like I said, with working with disabled folx across the lifespan.
Erica: Yeah.
Grant: And I believe that they know what they want in terms of like being in music. So the simplest example that I can give is fostering their love of performance - if that’s what they’re engaged in doing and that’s what they wanna do.
Erica: Mmm.
Grant: Um, and not having them always be the recipient of therapy. So that might involve like doing a performance. Maybe they wanna be composers. I know I’m like focusing on just like one specific uh type of music and identity right now, but um - allowing for there to be an artistic realization of who they are. If that’s what their desire is. And I think it lends itself very beautifully to community practices, because it allows us to not just be the only musicians that are involved, and being the only avenues for music —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: In disabled people’s lives. SO being able to help foster more accessible like ensembles, or accessible music viewing experiences - whatever that may be. But I think, especially within this context, I think music therapists have a really unique capacity to kind of serve as a bridge between these 2 worlds. And to know that it’s - it’s okay to be that bridge —
Erica: Mmm —
Grant: Could be like a really important thing.
Erica: Yeah.
Grant: Mmhmm.
Erica: Do you have any like additional thoughts - closing thoughts? Things that we haven’t talked about yet that you’d want to share?
Grant: I will say that there are - in more recent years, a lot more interest in musical identity, especially within the field of music therapy. This past conference there have been quite a few presentations about it, and I know there have been some masters level and other thesis projects that have gone out for more just discussion and interest in this, and that’s really exciting. I definitely don’t wanna claim expertise [chuckles] —
Erica: Yeah —
Grant: Or being the first person who thought about that by any means. But I am really excited that this is of interest. And I - I’m looking forward to reading some of the work that’s going to come out of all of these studies, and it’s —
Erica: Yeah —
Grant: I’m really excited that this is becoming just more interesting I guess.
Erica: That there’s more like literature —
Grant: Yeah —
Erica: About it, yeah. Um, for listeners that want to know more, where can they find you? What are you doing - where are you at?
Grant: So I’m part of quite a few different projects, um [chuckles] some people may say that I’m part of too many projects - but I’m really excited for the ones that I’ve been recently working on with a few people. I am one of the rotating cohosts for Clinical BOPulations, and that’s a podcast where we discuss song writing and the use of songs in clinical practice. We have our podcast available on Apple Podcast, we have it on Spotify, and any place that you can find podcasts. We also have a website, and um I’m sure that will be linked —
Erica: Link it. We’ll link it, don’t worry.
Grant: [Chuckles] Awesome, thank you. Um, I’m also part of a music technology collaborative, and we worked on something called the Tech Nook. Um, which is a music technology resource that has been designed by music therapists, music educators, and other music professionals to serve as more of a resource and be able to give a lot more context and assistance for music technology use and practice.
Erica: Awesome. And your Instagram?
Grant: You can follow me @GHales_MTBC.
Erica: Great. I will link all the things, do not worry. I will link all the things in the episode notes. And if you would like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam C as in Cat Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). On our website, you can find transcripts for every podcast episode. We encourage you to connect with us on social media @SCMusicProject on all social media platforms. Never miss notifications for new episodes and other projects. Thank you for all the ways you have supported this podcast - we want to continue to grow and highlight music therapy as another therapeutic option for the community. An easy way to make this happen is to share episodes with people in your circles and network. Let’s work together to advocate for music therapy.
Thanks again to Grant for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
[Podcast outro music plays].