Ep. 042 | Music & Mental Associations
Today, we chat with guest, Dianna Rose, a board-certified music therapist, about how our minds make connections and the impacts on mental health.
TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Welcome, friends! You’re listening to The Feeling is Musical — as presented by the Snohomish County Music Project. My name is Erica Lee, and today, we are talking about music and mental health associations, with board-certified music therapist, Dianna Rose.
After 25 years in radio, Dianna earned her Masters in Clinical Mental Health Counseling with a specialization in Music Therapy from Lesley University. She is a Music Therapist in a memory care facility and Music Director for her synagogue. Dianna’s interests include Neurological Music Therapy, wellness and preventative mental health, and intermodal work with dance, art, and play therapies.
[Podcast intro music plays]
Erica: Alrighty, well, welcome back to the podcast, Dianna. I’m really excited about today. I read through the whole of your thesis - it was really good. Um, I’m really nerdy I think when it comes to - well, several different things - but music therapy in particular. It’s so interesting to like read all the details of what somebody’s really into, or like what their special focus is, and like… So, your theses - I mean, you know this, but for listeners’ sake - your thesis is about music and mental associations. What was your motivation, or why did you decide that you were gonna focus on this?
Dianna: Well, mental associations, I don’t know how it popped onto my radar, but it did - several years ago. And just thinking how mental associations is the driver of every little aspect of our lives - of the nuances, our beliefs, our thoughts, our actions, how we learn, how we navigate life. And so, what I did with my master’s program - every assignment that I was given in any of the classes, I used it to align with associations: whether it was power, privilege, and oppression, where, you know, we have mental associations when it comes to implicit biases, or whether it was uh group therapy, or whether it was abnormal psych, or psychopharmacology - I threaded in associations. And because of that, basically, I found out 2 things.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: That associationism was the gold standard of western psychology for several hundred years. I hadn’t even heard of associationism before that. And I also found out that there are certain parts of the brain that are called association cortices, and their sole function is to take incoming sensory data, match it up with memories, form associations in these places of the brain that are designed just for that, and those then impact our choices —
Erica: Hmm —
Dianna: Our behavioral choices, our motor responses or what not. And so, having never heard of associationism - having never heard of association cortices - to find out these things were there, based on just kind of a hunch [chuckles] was kind of exciting. I kind of felt like I needed to be the town crier —
[Erica chuckles] —
Dianna: And go up and down - “Hear ye! Hear ye!” It’s pretty cool.
Erica: [Chuckles] That is cool. What is associ - you say it.
Dianna: Associationism, yeah, I’m used to it now. Well, associationism actually dates back to Aristotle - so it goes back over 2000 years. In a lot of his writings, he talked about - and I don’t know if I’ll pronounce this correctly, but: tabula rasa. That we are born mentally with blank slates, and that sensory information that we get creates mental associations - or mental representations - and we start to kind of find correlations between sensory data based on 3 things. Based on what he called associative laws: so based on similarity - like if 2 things are similar, we’ll group ‘em together —
Erica: Mmm —
Dianna: Or contrast for that matter - if we say hot, we think cold, if we say up we think down, right. Contiguity, which is how 2 things happen in uh on a timeline close together, like if there’s lightning, we anticipate thunder. Or frequency, where, if you repeat something over and over and over and over, whether that’s a messaging from our culture, or having the same experience over and over and over, we start to form a mental association from that.
So this goes back to Aristotle, but then, the period of association in western psychology emerged from the late 1600s, with philosophers like Hobbs, and John Locke, and David Heartly. And I - actually in my research - found uh a paper written by a professor at Princeton in the early 20s called The History of Association Psychology, and I - I almost fell out of my chair when I came across that. He really was the key that I came across that said, yes, association psychology has been the gold standard for centuries - and here are all the philosophers, and here’s everything they said.
And what was especially interesting, was that, around the late 1800s, some of these philosophers started to make theories that the brain had something to do with it. Even though we didn’t have the neuroscience we have today —
Erica: Mmm —
Dianna: Theorizing that this is a brain function. This is an actual brain function. There is something happening in the brain to cause these associations to form. David Heartly, for instance, he was thinking about a white substance of the brain that takes in info from the 5 senses, and there’s a chemical reaction in this white substance, and those corresponding chemical reactions is how we make our associations. Well, they talk about white matter later on in neuroscience and the neurology of associations. And William James, who has been called the father of American psychology, he wrote in the late 1800s that he thought central nervous system had something to do with how associations were formed, and neuroscience would later support that premise.
So, when I came across that paper - the History of Association Psychology, it was kind of like finding a lost treasure trove —
Erica: Mmm, yeah —
Dianna: That validated kind of my hunch, that association played a big part in the history of modern psychology.
Erica: Uh, when I was reading, one of the things I came across, I think in the introduction, was this idea that the basic premise was that complex thoughts result from the interconnection across different domains. And as I was reading through other different parts, it’s really like evident about how we make connections and associations, and then that is what is driving other things. It’s interesting in how we have different words to talk about the same thing, but there’s just nuance to what it is that those words are talking about.
Dianna: Yeah, it validates —
Erica: Yeah —
Dianna: You know, that there’s actually a brain function going on. And it really - like I mentioned before, it - it’s nuanced.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Dianna: It’s [speech distorted briefly] about implicit biases, you know, the social injustice that happens because of somebody getting the messaging that a person of a certain look is gonna have a certain behavior, or have certain traits. But it - it’s even more subtle than that. I mean, when I’ve talked to people about this concept of mental associations, my goal is to get people to stop and think, oh, what are the associations I have within me that are so subtle I don’t even realize it? And how are they impacting my choices and my attitudes? Where did they come from? Did they serve a purpose at one point? Are they still serving a purpose - towards the goal of wellbeing, which of course is an ultimate goal in any context of uh therapy —
Erica: Yeah —
Dianna: And - I like to kind of borrow a concept from Marie Kondo and her decluttering, right —
Erica: Yeah —
Dianna: Is when you hold an object - will this serve me in my future self? Will my future self serve my future life? Do I carry it with me? So to be aware of what those associations are, and then decide will they really serve me in the future - acknowledge that they’re there - they’re there for a reason - maybe it was survival, maybe it was external programming/maybe internal programming from your own life experience. But are they still valid, and are they malleable – we can change them. Or can we replace them with new associations.
We’ve had a lot of programming that, unfortunately, has reinforced a lot of overt or covert associations we have in our head. For better or worse, social media platforms, based on their algorithms, have created this very uniform type of programming that uses frequency and kind of imbeds that this group of people, who may align with this type of politics are inherently this way. You know, or this group of people, because of their ethnicity, or their race, or their socioeconomic status, must be this way.
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: And it’s actually wired into the human brain.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: In a tribal sense, our ability to survive is to recognize an other - someone not a part of the tribe.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: They’ve done some studies on infant children, where they placed, you know, a happy face or a sad face in front of them, and they pay attention to how long they gaze at one face or another. They’ve done that with, you know, a face of a similar skin tone, and a different skin tone. How long do they gaze at one, and which uh visual do they avoid?
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: It’s part of the animal brain. And so, to acknowledge that, and then to be able to find ways to be able to work around that, unfortunately some people have exploited it.
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: But it really is part of an early hardwiring of our ancestral brain to understand and acknowledge an other.
One of my favorite analogies is the Dr. Suess book about the Sneetches - that had stars upon thars, remember? There were some that had a star on their belly so they thought that they were better because of it. And that this snake oil salesman comes along with this machine, and tells these Sneetches without the stars on their belly that, hey, I can put a star on your belly and you’ll be just as good as them.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: They did that, but then the people with the stars - er, the people - the sneetches with the stars on their belly said, well, I don’t wanna be like them, take the star off, and then we’ll be better. And this snake salesman - the snake oil salesman was able to - you see in the image of the book they keep running around getting the stars taken off and on and off and on and off and on because of the associations that had been made. And then in the end they realize that it doesn’t matter anyway. And that’s where we need to be - that’s where we need to get. Is that it doesn’t matter, and to try to get rid of that programming that one group is better than an other based upon certain traits.
Erica: Yeah. I so agree. And, you were saying, how does the association serve you - or like what was the purpose of it before. And I remember, when I very first started doing therapy for myself - I think like the first or second session, my therapist said like, you were doing the best that you could with the tools and resources that you had at the time —
Dianna: Mmhmm —
Erica: And that has stuck with me in a really powerful way. And I had never considered emotions and behaviors that I was experiencing or doing as - thinking about them as a purpose - or the reasoning for them. And, turns out she was completely right. But um, it was just like shocking to me almost, because I had learned - associated - that what I was doing was bad, and that that’s why I was in therapy. I didn’t go to therapy to go, oh, I’m gonna figure out why I am doing this, but the why matters.
Dianna: Right.
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: And then, to look at that as objectively as possible - to understand where those associations came from.
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: Maybe they served a purpose - maybe it was imposed upon you. And is - is that reasoning valid anymore? And if you can really get under that, and understand that it may not be valid anymore, or it may no longer serve its purpose - and to empower the person to realize that they can change it.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Dianna: Associations are changed all the time. Uh, an example is the face masks. A year ago, if we saw somebody in a store wearing a face mask, we might say what’s - are they sick? Now, there’s 2 groups of people: basically the ones that say, oh yeah, if I’m wearing a mask that means I care about myself and others, and to somebody else, wearing a mask is a sign of oppression and government control.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: And that association [clicks tongue] changed like that. So it shows us that humans have the ability to make those changes in their associations.
Erica: Absolutely, yeah. In your research, you had talked about the power of neuroplasticity —
Dianna: Exactly —
Erica: And how we can build new neural pathways —
Dianna: Right —
Erica: And I was just thinking about that in terms of, of course, like sociological things that we experience in our environment, and how we deal with society, but also how that - that can be beneficial to how we examine what we need for mental health/how we can support others in their mental health —
Dianna: Right —
Erica: As a music therapist - er, inside of the music therapy discipline, what does that mean practically for how you might practice, or how you might structure a session, or work with a client?
Dianna: Well, first of all, in my research - and part of the thesis was on the neurology of associations, because my premise was: knowing that music, you know, engages the whole brain —
Erica: Mmhmm —
Dianna: I wanted to find out if the parts of the brain that are used to form mental associations are also the parts of the brain that light up in music engagement. And it - it’s almost - like if you put a column on one side and a column on the other side, here are the parts of the brain that are engaged in association formation, and music engagement. They’re almost identical.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: And so, my premise was that, if that in fact turn out to be the case, then music could be an especially powerful tool to uncover associations, to create new associations, and to work with mal adaptive associations. Because they engage the same parts of the brain that form those associations.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: Whether it is using improv to uncover subconscious associations just through the cathartic experience - you know, there’s a lot of suppressed feelings, emotions, experiences that can come out through the act of improvisation. Maybe through song analysis - why are you drawn to a specific song? What’s the message? How do you associate yourself with that songwriter, or maybe it’s just a certain mood of music - what sort of emotional response do you get from that from that particular piece of music and why? What do you associate that sound with? And once you know what those associations are, to be able to use music therapy - whether it is through frequency - which is how, you know, associations are formed? Just repeating even like a mantra or repeating a song - people do this all the time when they want to build up their confidence. You know, they may listen to a certain song. And that’s making changes in the brain. It’s - it’s forming new neural pathways.
In forming associations, there’s a couple of key components involved: memory, and emotion, and sensory input. So we start with the sensory input, the brain then compares the new information with established memories, and one thing we’ve learned about memory is that the encoding and retrieval of a memory is enhanced through emotions.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Dianna: So you’re gonna remember the experience if there was an emotional element connected to it. Whether that’s joy, or fear, or anger. Well, music, we already know, is very powerful emotionally - it also enhances, not only the encoding of memory, but the retrieval of memory. Right, we know this when we work with people with dementia, that if music triggers a certain emotion, it will then trigger certain memories.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: So if you’ve got a traumatic experience - if you have social programming that has been reenforced through memory and emotion - politics plays on emotion fervently, as we’ve been able to see in recent years - well, music also engages emotions and memory. SO how then do we use that power to facilitate not only the awareness of associations, but how we can change them, and then how we reenforce them —
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: Those new associations. Using music as a tool, because, again, it stimulates those parts of the brain —
Erica: Absolutely —
Dianna: And there’s a lot of research in neuroscience that music stimulates neuroplasticity in the brain. And that’s really what we’re trying to do - is make new neural connections that can help somebody kinda free themselves from old programming and old associations.
Erica: Yeah. You were talking about - in your writing about reward systems, and how that involves dopamine release, and that’s activated when we listen to music —
Dianna: Mmhmm —
Erica: And as I was thinking about that, um I was thinking - I’ve had a couple conversations with other music therapists in our area about just the huge benefits of listening to music and what can people do at home, especially during the pandemic, where there’s just limited activities at this point —
Dianna: Right —
Erica: That it’s things that are safe to do - that people feel comfortable doing. And listening to music is definitely one of them. And so then as we’re thinking about emotion and frequency and changing the way that we think, um something that I do is I tend to listen to the same playlist every morning while I’m getting ready, taking a shower, etc. It wasn’t an intentional like, oh I’m going to do this so like I feel better —
Dianna: Right —
Erica: In the morning, but that is the result that has happened - that after like 6-ish months or so of listening to the same songs every morning, I feel a little bit more energized, a little bit more like ready to go. And that’s something that, based on what I’ve read and you’re telling me, sounds like that’s activating my brain in a way that is setting me up for better mental health —
Dianna: Right —
Erica: For that day.
Dianna: So what you’ve done is you have crated a new association of listening to this music equals I’m gonna feel better.
Erica: Mmhmm.
Dianna: And, through frequency - repetition —
Erica: Yeah —
Dianna: A new association has been formed. And I call music, you know, a hidden pharmacy - where, you know - do I need to feel better - do I need to feel motivated - do I need catharsis, you know - sometimes you just feel like crap and we need to get it out of our system, right?
Erica: Mmhmm.
Dianna: In the context of COVID and the lock down and pandemic, listen to music with intention. Be aware of what the goal is for you in that moment. Do you need to feel better? Do you need to let out some stress? Do you need some mental clarity? And then find those songs that you feel can trigger a memory, or just even an emotion - it doesn’t even have to be a memory. Sometimes we don’t even know what the memory is, but the music and the emotions it triggers is really good enough.
Erica: Mmm.
Dianna: And use it. I mean, maybe you’re just so frustrated by everything that you need to let it out. And movement to music is a great physical release of that pent up stress. So, play a song that, you know - maybe it’s the theme from Rocky - or you know —
[Erica chuckles]
Dianna: Something Where you kinda get up and, you know, I’m gonna make it through this, and I’m gonna, you know, fight through - or whatever. I mean, every -every person has their own unique musical preferences. For some, they wanna see it as a fight/for others they might wanna see it as I’m gonna rise above it. Whatever metaphor that you use - but to just, you know, whether you already have a playlist, or form a playlist, even if it’s 1 or 2 songs in each area - of uh relaxing - escapism. I think sometimes we - we think solely about music and forget that there’s other sounds we can listen to that are not necessarily music. It could be nature sounds - you know, we’re feeling very confined being in our home, then listen to birds chirping in a field, or a little creek, you know, by a mountain, melting snow - gives you a sense of expansion and space when we’re feeling very confined.
Erica: Yeah. That’s - I really like thinking about other sounds.
Dianna: It could be listening to bells or a gong. It can go beyond the traditional concept of structural music.
Erica: Yeah.
Dianna: And really, all this - and my - my basic take away for everyone listening is: spend some time thinking about what possible associations you have that may be creating a negative impact in your wellbeing. And some of it is involving being, you know, brutally honest. You know, it’s hard to kind of face - like, okay, I have these implicit biases, or okay, I have this certain attitude, or okay, I have this certain mindset - and that sometimes is hard to confront. But to just spend time with it. You know, why do I behave in a certain way towards that person? Why do I have this assumption that I can’t do this? Those negative tapes we have about ourselves that are playing all the time - where do those come from? Those are negative associations we have about our self. Are they serving us - are they valid - truly valid?
And if not, what can we do to change those associations? For some people, it’s listening to a song, for other people, it’s saying mantras about themselves, or writing down words that say, you know, I am strong/I am confident. We may think they’re silly at first, right - these positive affirmations. But that is the law of association that involves frequency and repetition. And, going back again to the power of music - because it engages the memory and emotion - write a song or play a song that enhances and enforces your involvement in whatever you want that new association to be.
Erica: Mmm. That is so good. I love that.
Well, that is the time we have for today. Thank you, Dianna, so much for coming back and chatting with us more. Hopefully we can find more things to chat about - love having you on the podcast.
Dianna: Thank you - my pleasure.
Erica: Absolutely.
If you’d like to know more about the Music Project, please visit our website at S as in Sam C as in Cat Music Project dot org (scmusicproject.org). On our website, you can find transcripts for every podcast episode. We encourage you to connect with us on social media @SCMusicProject on all social media platforms. Never miss notifications for new episodes and other projects. Thank you for all the ways you’ve supported this podcast - we want to continue to grow and highlight music therapy as another therapeutic option for the community. An easy way to make this happen is to share episodes with people in your circles and network. Let’s work together to advocate for music therapy.
Thanks again to Dianna for being here today. Thank you, listeners, for listening. And we will talk to you next time.
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